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  • PRO

    If you are wondering what that is, it is when women who...

    Third Wave Feminism

    their main argument is the pay gap, which is that in America, women are paid 75c for every $1 a man is paid. some reasons that they believe this is the motherhood conspiracy. If you are wondering what that is, it is when women who are mothers are believed to have more commitment than men or single women, so they face higher expectations and less chance of a promotion. a different argument is that sexism still exists and employers might accidentally undervalue women, and overvalue men. on the topic of rape, I don't think that most people understand that a woman can rape a man, so they tend to overlook that, which is probably the reason 3rd waves think that.

  • CON

    http://www.historynet.com... 3. ... (Keynote speech at...

    2nd wave and 3rd wave/modern feminism is harmful and should not exist.

    I find my opponents arguments amusing but I will address all LABELED points and those that aren't opinionated arguments based in fiction. Seeing as my opponent holds the BOP and I as Neg do not my opening arguments will be directed at my opponents. 1. My opponent provides no evidence. But I would like to point out something, at the end of this point he states " Just because men can't get pregnant, doesn't automatically make them rapists and unable to be raped." You are very clearly not a feminist but your saying men who are raped are rapists. You fall victim to your own point. 2.Again another unsupported argument backed by opinion and a cherry picked example, so let me respond with an example of my own. Eleanor Roosevelt, who " helped establish the non-profit Val-Kill Industries in 1926 in Hyde Park, New York, which was designed to teach local farmers skills to create colonial furniture reproductions to supplement their income" and "helped draft the Universal Declaration of Human Rights and, in her initial assignment to the Social, Humanitarian, and Cultural Committee, helped address the repatriation of displaced people. She became chairman of the Human Rights Commission and during her seven years as a delegate, traveled the world extensively investigating social, political, and economic conditions." sounds like she raped men and/or tried to make men sound like animals that only rape. you know when she was assisting Vets from WWII. http://www.historynet.com... 3. Another Unsupported Argument, and to answer your question NO, nothing is wrong with VAWA, lets look at some stats real quick, since VAWA "Between 1993 to 2007, the rate of intimate partner homicides of females decreased 35% and the rate of intimate partner homicides of males decreased 46%." that's right men stopped killing one another too. but that's not all "responding to urgent calls for help by establishing the National Domestic Violence Hotline, which has answered over 3 million calls and receives over 22,000 calls every month; 92% of callers report that it"s their first call for help; improving safety and reducing recidivism by developing coordinated community responses that bring together diverse stakeholders to work together to prevent and respond to violence against women, focusing attention on the needs of underserved communities, including creating legal relief for battered immigrants so that abusers cannot use the victim"s immigration status to prevent victims from calling the police or seeking safety, and supporting tribal governments in building their capacity to protect American Indian and Alaska Native women." if there really was no need for this law like you state why was there any improvements? 4. Another list of cherry picked examples, where a feminist, not all, responded against men in some way. most of these arguments aren't even tied to their articles alone, thus they are unsupported. its illogical for myself or anyone else to assume that these are correct, in fact the first one doesn't even tie to a website. thus these statements must be disregarded. 5. This isn't even an argument its simple quotes from radical female supremacists, not even modern feminists , to which I will quote too; Brigham Young (YES A MAN) "You educate a man; you educate a man. You educate a woman; you educate a generation." R13; Brigham Young Doris Lessing "Ideally, what should be said to every child, repeatedly, throughout his or her school life is something like this: 'You are in the process of being indoctrinated. We have not yet evolved a system of education that is not a system of indoctrination. We are sorry, but it is the best we can do. What you are being taught here is an amalgam of current prejudice and the choices of this particular culture. The slightest look at history will show how impermanent these must be. You are being taught by people who have been able to accommodate themselves to a regime of thought laid down by their predecessors. It is a self-perpetuating system. Those of you who are more robust and individual than others will be encouraged to leave and find ways of educating yourself " educating your own judgements. Those that stay must remember, always, and all the time, that they are being moulded and patterned to fit into the narrow and particular needs of this particular society." R13; Doris Lessing, The Golden Notebook Simone de Beauvoir "I am too intelligent, too demanding, and too resourceful for anyone to be able to take charge of me entirely. No one knows me or loves me completely. I have only myself" R13; Simone de Beauvoir Gloria Steinem "A feminist is anyone who recognizes the equality and full humanity of women and men." R13; Gloria Steinem Martha Gellhorn "I know enough to know that no woman should ever marry a man who hated his mother." R13; Martha Gellhorn, Selected Letters tags: ernest-hemingway, feminism, hate, love, marriage, married-life, matrimony, men, mothers, psychology, Madeleine Albright "There is a special place in hell for women who don't help other women." (Keynote speech at Celebrating Inspiration luncheon with the WNBA's All-Decade Team, 2006)" R13; Madeleine Albright

  • PRO

    GOOGLE DEFINITON: 1.the unjust or prejudicial treatment...

    Feminism and Catholicism: The Church is not Misogynistic, in fact the polar opposite

    So let's start with your given definition of "misogyny" Misogyny is the hatred or dislike of women or girls. Catholicism does not hate women or girls. You make a fallacy here in your next statement, " if Con can offer evidence that the Catholic Church discriminates against women" Discrimination was not the definition, but merely one of many possible manifestations of misogyny. You can be hostile to something and not hate it. Not every soldier hates the enemies they fight and kill, but they are certainly hostile to them. Furthermore, the church is not hostile toward women. The church does not preach violence against women in any of it's doctrines, and it is CERTAINLY against the sexual objectification of women. The sexual objectification of women happens a lot in the secular world though, through one of the largest and most profitable businesses in our world today: Pornography. Which is outright condemned by the Church BECAUSE it objectifies, belittles, and hurts women. Now let's move onto the word "discrimination". GOOGLE DEFINITON: 1.the unjust or prejudicial treatment of different categories of people or things, especially on the grounds of race, age, or sex: "victims of racial discrimination" " [more] synonyms: prejudice " bias " bigotry " intolerance " [more] 2.recognition and understanding of the difference between one thing and another: "discrimination between right and wrong" " [more] So, I am assuming your are going to use the first definition. There is that word "unjust" in there. Well, equality is not always justice. Treating things that are UNEQUAL as EQUAL is as unjust as treating EQUAL things UNEQUALLY. The role of women in the Church is not equal to men, nor is men's to women. They are just different. A mother and father have unequal roles in conceiving, carrying, caring for, and raising a child. Is one role less important? No, they are simply different. Would you want to treat a fresh out of medical school surgeon the same as a seasoned veteran and specialist for a life or death decision? I should hope not, because they are not equals and that is not injustice. Are there instances of discrimination that are in fact injustice? Yes, see the above explanation. Treating equal things unequally. "Witch burnings..." Yes that is a tricky and sticky subject for both of us and it would escape the scope of the argument. Soldiers in Vietnam were ordered by their superiors to commit the Mai Lai Massacre, and that instance alone can illustrate the complexity of "what an organization says" vs "what it practices" and all the gray areas in between. So for the sake of brevity we both agree to move on. COUNTER TO DOCTRINE You are obviously not well learned in scripture and Catholic teaching. Yes, Genesis tells us that woman was made from man's SIDE. For your spouse is to walk next to you and beside you as an equal, not behind you or in front of you. Eve was not made from his FOOT or his nether regions or his head. Furthermore, God punishes man just as well as women by forcing him to labor and toil and die. Men also have submission, and if you stop taking verses out of context you would see that. Your quotes of Paul are referring to women's roles as Bishops. This gets into a discussion about Apostolic Succession and Authority and Tradition which Christ gave to his Church. All of the Bishops were men, and their teaching authority and tradition (which in the Catholic Church is on the highest level BESIDE the Bible, also remember we had no Bible for hundreds of years after Christianity was founded) continued that practice. Paul also spends about 95% of his writings in the Bible correcting, yelling at, and scolding MEN. He also calls men to love their wives as Christ loves his Church. In fact, the Church (which would be run by Bishops) is the BRIDE and Christ is the BRIDEGROOM. So in essence, Paul is telling the same if not more to men. CHURCH FATHERS While you cite a number of Church father's relating to sin, YOU ARE MISSING SOMETHING I POSTED IN THE OPENING ARGUMENT The first, and GREATEST CHRISTIAN, was Mary. Mother of Jesus. Let me list some more title she has MOTHER OF GOD QUEEN OF ANGELS CRUSHER OF HERESEY and THE NEW EVE Just as Christ is the new Adam, so is Mary the new Eve. Please read on Mariology, which again is a very complex and intricate subject that delves deeply into the faith and scripture and we should refrain from it here. The Church Fathers were also wild about Mary, and to keep things relevant, especially in the last century there has been a huge surge in Marian Devotions. The Divine Chaplet of Mercy The Writings of St. Faustina JP2 making a new set of mysteries to the Rosary and dozens of Saints, like Padre Pio and Mother Theresa saying things like, "No Mary, No Jesus. Know Mary, Know Christ" In fact, Mary is considered to be ABOVE ALL POPES. She is directly below the God Head of the Trinity, and thus Marian Theology shows us that women are inherently better Christians and People than men are. This is the teaching of the church. So PLEASE keep in mind that you are MISSSING A HUGE literary and rhetorical device when the Church Father's reference "Eve", as you clearly excluded their discussions on "Mary". You really are missing quite a bit of scripture and theology when you quote mine like that. But that is why I am glad we are having this conversation, to clear up popular misconceptions, which you so usefully demonstrate for me. MAJORITY OF WOMEN ARE CATHOLICS Yes, because once again, they are inherently better Christians and People. Furthermore, I personally know a number of women on Church budget committees, pastoral committees, charity committees, evangelization, education, and so on! I have personally seen women make decisions effecting Church life and function. Who founded the institution in Calcutta that transformed so many lives? St. Mother Theresa! I mean I really cannot list enough female saints who founded orders and institutions of all sorts. Citing ONE strange law about the Vatican pales in comparison to the great and transparent contributions women make on a daily basis DESPITE not being able to function as priests. Nuns vs Priests Nuns, like their monk counterparts, have all of their needs taken for and they in fact, on their own free will, enter a life of poverty. Monks and brothers do the exact same thing, and not all priests are given the same salaries. You are TRULY mislead on the differences in monastic orders. Monastic orders are DIFFERENT than priestly orders. Each order operates differently, and generally speaking it is the same for men and women. All of this is done voluntarily I might add. The Catholic Church does not kidnap women and make them be nuns. http://www.religious-vocation.com... POLITICS So, while the world sees being opposed to birth control as oppression, we see it as preserving the natural femininity of females. I cannot really say enough about this, and since this is not about specifically birth control, suffice it to say that the church is opposed to industries the secular world is fine with: Killing Babies (abortion) Stripping men and women of their natural abilities sexually speaking (birth control) Objectifying women (sex trade, pornography, and prostitution) I suggest listening to testimonies by people like Jane Breean or former porn starts who left mainstream/secular feminism to come to the Catholic Church, because they saw how greatly women are protected and honored. CLOSING REMARKS I hardly see how when the Pope says, "women are the most beautiful thing God has made" as misogynistic. HOW IS THAT HATRED? How is saying the greatest Christians were women, discrimination AGAISNT women? You have many misunderstandings of the faith, because you are of the world. But I hope to have you reconsider.

  • PRO

    I don't feel like arguing anymore, I'll tie it, But In my...

    Today's types of Feminism isn't needed

    I don't feel like arguing anymore, I'll tie it, But In my opinion so far you win I am tired and don't have extra time to debate this week so you win congrats.