• PRO

    As I said earlier, you CAN sue your employer If he pays...

    The west doesn't need feminism, it needs to move

    They do mean on average since men generally work longer while women generally look after the kids and men get the bigger jobs. My opponent says that men could vote before women even though this is the present, today they're fine although they were mistreated decades or even centuries ago. Ever heard of the Equal Pay Act of 1963? It's illegal to pay less without a valid reason. As I said earlier, you CAN sue your employer If he pays less because of discrimination. This woman describes why we don't need feminism, I'll mention some of her words, the rest is in "America has the most free and liberated women in the world. We have more opportunities than ever before thanks to the original feminist movement. Today"s feminists claim to be strong and independent women but instead they play the victim in order to push their agenda." "One of the major arguments of the current feminist movement is that women make 78 cents to every dollar a man earns. Experts have proven this to be misleading and simply untrue. This claim does not take into account occupation, experience, hours worked, education, and many other variables that factor into wage." "According to the feminist theory class that every school seems to offer nowadays, this is because women are pressured by sexist stereotypes. They will tell you that women"s choices truly aren"t free. This is also false." "When a woman claims that she wants a family more than a career, she is laughed at and shunned by these so-called "women warriors." - Shannon Golden Sources: {1} http://futurefemaleleader.com... {2} https://m.youtube.com... {3} https://m.youtube.com...

  • CON

    It would be good if people did get sued for that but that...

    The west doesn't need feminism, it needs to move

    It would be good if people did get sued for that but that does not always happen. According to the Guardian, there is not a country in the world where women get paid the same as men. {I am assuming they mean on average}. There are several reasons for the pay gap and it can be hard to just prove a specific law has been breached. For example, when men and women first join a law firm and the company decides on pay the woman usually gets less. When a alot of women join an industry the pay for everyone goes down. That is not discrimination {in a legal sense}. It is their work being valued less. https://www.theguardian.com... There might be times when people believe that a particular group of people are privileged. And of course, as you point out that is not always true. There are plenty of men that do not do well in life. This does not mean that there are men that don't get an advantage because they are men. For example, men could vote before women could. There is still discrimination against women, etc. I would argue though that For example, when men and women first join a law firm and the company decides on pay the woman usually gets less. When a alot of women join an industry the pay for everyone goes down. That is not discrimination {in a legal sense}. It is their work being valued less. https://www.theguardian.com... There might be times when people believe that a particular group of people are privileged. And of course, as you point out that is not always true. There are plenty of men that do not do well in life. This does not mean that there are men that don't get an advantage because they are men. For example, men could vote before women could. There is still discrimination against women, etc. I would argue though that feminism holds different views on the status of men. Therefore, not every feminists believes that it is as simple as men being privileged. For example, "all people are both privileged and non-privileged in certain aspects of their life. Furthermore, since dynamics of social status are highly dependent on situation, a person can benefit from privilege in one situation while not benefiting from it in another.". https://finallyfeminism101.wordpress.com...

  • PRO

    Resolution: "Second-wave [1] and third-wave [2] feminism...

    Second-wave and third-wave feminism have, all in all, detrimentally affected the USA.

    Resolution: "Second-wave [1] and third-wave [2] feminism have, all in all [3], detrimentally [4] affected the United States of America [5]" The first round is for acceptance. (Right now, this debate is impossible to accept. If you are interested in debating this topic, post in the comment section.) [1] http://en.wikipedia.org... [2] http://en.wikipedia.org... [3] "Everything being taken into account" http://www.thefreedictionary.com... [4] "obviously harmful; damaging" http://www.merriam-webster.com... [5] http://en.wikipedia.org...

  • CON

    My mother was born in communist Czechoslovakia so I have...

    Third-wave feminism is about misandry and has nothing to do with gender equality

    Sure equal opportunity is part of feminism. But so is equal treatment. If a woman performs the exact same amount of work as man it should follow that she gets the same pay. I cannot see any way you could logically justify the opposite. As to affirmative action, I find those just as un-feministic as the wage gap. 2 & 3. I was a bit unclear in this specific part of my argument. A woman is physically unable to work for maybe 2-3 months due to pregnancies and the immediate post-pregnancy, maybe a bit longer if the baby refuses breast milk from a bottle. After that she is perfectly capable of working again. And yes, during those 2-3 months it would be irresponsible for a husband/boyfriend/father to quit their job. It is what comes afterwards that bothers feminists. As a child is a result of two people the taking care of that child should be split equally. But sadly it is not. Just like the link you posted in the first round women spend twice as much time caring for children than men. And it is not only childcare, housewives are in general is so much more common than househusbands. It shouldn't be culturally acceptable for people of one gender to be the sole income earner just because they are of that gender. Also, I am not 100% certain of how thing work in the US, but I have heard that women only get like 2-3 weeks of maternity leave and therefore have to use their vacation time to be able to cope. Which I assume would then go into your statistics. 4. Communism has many faults, but gender equality is not one of them. When it comes to gender equality I'd say the Soviets kicked US's asss all through the cold war. When it comes to education and work gender didn't really matter for the Soviets because it was the citizens patriotic duty to do their part for the motherland. So when the commies rolled in three things they made sure everyone had was a job, healthcare and education. My mother was born in communist Czechoslovakia so I have a first hand source on this. Also, the link you posted agrees with me and it says nothing about the supposed sexist and oppressive nature of the Soviet Union that you claim. As to the women having brains wired in a different way, this is the most sexist thing I think I've heard all year and isn't true in anyway. Women choose arts and humanities because society says so. If you go all your life hearing that women aren't good at math and science and stuff you're obviously not gonna pick it when you eventually get the choice. And as I quite clearly stated, feminism isn't forcing companies to hire women, companies want women but can't get them because their is a serious lack of them on the labour market. Things that are rare usually becomes sought after. Want to fix the problem? Push your daughter to become an engineer. Make sure that in the future, applicants for jobs are 50/50 men and women. 5. That source you posted about women getting more doctorates is laughable. I will not take a source which literally says "Silly me, you can't be sexist against men" as credible when it comes to an argument about feminism. I can't give you any other proof of women getting less masters and doctorate than my own personal experience. I study at Sweden's largest university (Lund University if you want to google it) to become an engineer. I can tell you that on the engineering campus only about 30% of the students here are women. My friends who study physics and chemistry tell me it's just as bad for them. Medicine and biology do the best, with almost 50%. Please tell me how it is possible that women gain more masters and doctorates when they are quite clearly a minority? 6. I've covered this twice now and I don't want to repeat myself again. 7. Why would I want to prove that? It sounds like a load of cr*p. It has nothing to do with this discussion. 8. Yes, they all earned their wealth. And no one is saying anything about protesting or forcing their way into successful corporations. But if feminism is about equal opportunity as you yourself said in the first point, why then is the list made up of a majority of men. If men and women truly had equal opportunities then that list would be 50/50. If you disagree to that you must believe that one gender is superior to the other, which would make you sexist. As to the majority of men being low income workers, you did not give me any source about it and I couldn't find a reliable one that either confirms or denies that point. 9. How is it a woman's choice if her boss decides to give her 5% less hourly wages than her male counterpart? It's the boss' choice. 10. I don't want to waste characters to refute these because we are getting a bit off topic. But, my point was, which you apparently agree with judging by you last sentence, that "Ideology is ideology, regardless of practice" (very nicely put btw). Just because a person claims to be feminist does not make all their actions feminist. Neither does the feminist ideals of gender equality change because the word is being misused by "feminists". 11. You throw together a lot of metaphors and it eventually ends with a statistically incorrect statement. If half the population (men) and half the population (women) were equal, their wages would be to. That's how statistics work. Once again my opponent closes with pretty much the same finisher as last time. Just because you have met some crazy sexist women who claims to be feminist doesn't alter feminism. You are confusing individuals with a movement that has a very clear definition and an even clearer set of goals. And judging by some of the arguments you have made you are very clearly not an egalitarian (for example the women having brains wired differently argument). This however does not change the definition of egalitarianism, because you are only one person who missuses the word. But following by your logic, egalitarianism now should include some misogyni, because you as a follower of the movement have strayed from its core ideal

  • PRO

    I have already produced years of scientific research to...

    Third-wave feminism is about misandry and has nothing to do with gender equality

    I will reinstate the point that you have willfully ignored throughout the entire debate. THIRD-WAVE feminism is different from the viewpoints of traditional feminism and the movement has completely strayed from it's fundamentals about achieving fairness in society. Feminism is a movement and simply many of it's adherents support affirmative-action like policies. You can't just sweep them all under the rug and claim that these are not feminists. After pregnancy, the father will continue to work to supply the household with income which we can both agree is a responsible choice. Where we differ is what happens after, you talk about how women don't work as some kind of major sexist problem. But frankly, I don't see any problem that THIRD-WAVE feminism can fix. The men are not forcing women with threats of violence to stop them from returning to the workplace. And frankly how dare you DEMAND that both gender MUST provide incomes in order to not be "sexist". What gives you the moral obligation to tell the universe and the economy on how it should be run? (US has no maternity leave so, that is definitely not taken in consideration of the "vacation" statistic.) I am in a total state of disbelief after reading your statement: "...They made sure everyone had was a job, healthcare and education". Assuming you ignore the Purges(1.2 million), Soviet caused famine in Volga(5 million), Great Leap Forward (600 million) and their struggling economies that only survived due to Communist armies that quelled any thought of rebellion through military force, you might consider communism a success story. There is only one reason why Soviet women were in STEM and that was because they were forced to by the Soviet government at gunpoint. No feminism caused this involvement in the USSR as feminists were shot and killed by the USSR. As for your point against women and men simply having different interests and psychology, pointing fingers and screaming "SEXIST" does not debunk my point at all. I have already produced years of scientific research to back up a well-known fact about the differences in male and female interests. All you did was scream SEXISM and completely ignored scientific data so you could continue your delusion about how there is institutional sexism and that it secretly detracts women that have an equal skill and interest in STEM. You proclaim this delusion throughout your whole debate without even procuring a single statistic that even remotely backs up your claims. Screaming sexism at my data then going on to ignore my argument and continue to rephrase your argument for the 27th time is not a counterpoint. Your "point" about how women are detracted from STEM is because of how society tells women that they are inferior at mathematics is ridiculous. Not once in my life, has anyone even remotely hinted to me that I am terrible at acting however despite this lack of a negative force, I don't want to pursue an acting career. I don't want to pursue an acting career, not because society tells me that I don't have the ability the reason but, is that I simply have no interest. Just because women apply to STEM jobs at a slightly lower rate does not mean there is institutional sexism of any kind. Men do not have 50% of jobs in the field of nursing, that does not translate into sexism. Your idea of a gender-equal society is horrifying: "Make sure that in the future, applicants for jobs are 50/50 men and women.". I have proven on the preponderance on the evidence of which you have done little to nothing to refute, that women and men simply have different interests due to their brains. What you are demanding for is that society should force little girls to pick STEM jobs regardless of interests to fulfill your ignorant quota. You claim that you are against affirmative actions, but you turn right around and advocate for these similar policies. With your points about "personal experience" about women getting less masters and PhDs, frankly you are wrong. Years of statistics and studies show otherwise and your experiences are not reliable in the slightest. As for your point about how if there are equal opportunity for both genders then that would result in equal outcome is a laughable argument. Outcome is about decisions in life and while opportunity plays a role in where you start, it does not define where you end. In a previous round, I have presented a statistics that shows that income mobility in very high despite where you start. Using your logic: Monopoly, Chess, Checkers, Olympic games, etc. would all end in tie games. The result does not boil down to a specific gender/player rigging the system but, an individual's choices which leads to victory or defeat. Men make up majority of CEOs because, men are more likely to take risks in life. That is why majority of women are in the middle, and a majority of men are at the bottom. More risks can lead to greater gains and greater losses. That is why there is a majority of CEOS being male despite a majority of the male population at the bottom. At the end, it's the women's decisions that lead to the "wage gap", they avoid risks, take more vacations, avoid STEM and simply work less hours. With your supposed "refutation" about how the world does not completely follow probabilities, you just go right on and ignore it by claiming it was false without any evidence or arguments. Once again my opponent merely repeats the same strategy as last time. Just because you say my point is false, doesn't mean that it's false, I DEMAND that you provide evidence in your counter points as I do. And judging by some of the arguments you have made you clearly do not understand how to debate intelligently using evidence and reason. Your whole argument has degraded to the point where your "refutations" aren't even counterpoints but mere assaults on my character through unsupported allegations of misogyny and sexism. Name calling and ignoring opponent arguments don't win debates.

  • PRO

    There is, however, some good news. ... They're also more...

    Feminism

    This argument is ridiculous here are 14 reasons why..... 1. Women pay more for common household items than men do. Shampoo, deodorant"even a 10-pack of socks"are among the many products that cost more for women, according to an analysis we published earlier this year. 2. Women make 16% less money than their male counterparts. Although the pay gap is narrowing, women in the U.S. working full- and part-time make 84% of what their male counterparts earn, according to the Pew Research Center. In other words, women need to work an extra 40 days a year to make as much as men. It's an even grimmer picture overseas: Women worldwide make 77% the amount paid to men, according to a report from the United Nation's International Labor Organization. 3. And for black and Hispanic women, the rates are even worse. Black women have to work 19 months to make what white men did in a year, according to the National Women's Law Center. That number is even worse for Hispanic women, the center found. 4. Women are underrepresented in government. Although women make up nearly 51% of the U.S. population, only 20% of the U.S. Congress is comprised of women, which"fortunately or unfortunately"makes the current Congress one of the most diverse in American history, according to The Washington Post. Worldwide, just 22% of all national parliamentarians were female as of January 2015, according to the U.N. 5. Women are the minority in the executive suite. At Fortune 500 companies, they account for 17% of boards members, 15% of C-suite executives and 5% of CEOs, according to Business Insider. There is, however, some good news. A USA Today analysis this year found that 21 of the 22 current female chief executives in the Standard & Poor's 500 index"which includes Yahoo, defense contractor Lockheed Martin and TJX, the company that owns retailers like T.J. Maxx and Marshalls"earned an average of $18.8 million compared with male CEOs' average salary of $12.7 million. Never mind that there are 455 male CEOs in the S&P 500. 6. Women are also the minority in the news media. Women are on camera 32% percent of the time, according to the Women's Media Center's annual report The Status of Women in the U.S. Media 2015. They report 37% of the stories in print, and on the internet, they write 42% of the news. 7. And they're the minority in the booming tech sector, too. Women on average comprise about 30% of the workforce at the world's largest tech companies, including Google, Microsoft, Twitter and Facebook, according to their own diversity reports. 8. Women still shoulder more of the household burden. According to the U.S. government's National Time Use Survey, working moms are more likely to be saddled with childcare duties than working fathers, even if both spouses work equal hours outside the house. They're also more likely to get the burden of doing chores around the house, even if they're not stay-at-home moms. 9. Women are far more likely to be the victims of human trafficking. More than 800,000 people are trafficked across international borders every year, according to a report in the journal Obstetrics & Gynecology. And a whopping 80% of them are women and girls, mostly taken from their homes to be forced into prostitution abroad. 10. Female soldiers face rape and harassment. Between one fifth and one half of female veterans were sexually harassed while on active duty, and women are more likely to leave with PTSD from rape than from actual fighting, according to a 2013 Pentagon report. 11. Women overall are at a greater risk of rape and domestic violence. In fact, women between the ages of 15 and 44 are at a greater risk of experiencing rape or domestic violence than cancer, car accidents, war or malaria, according to the World Bank. And as much as 70% of women worldwide experience violence during their life, the U.N. said. 12. Young women experience inequality in high school sports. Despite the passage in 1972 of Title IX, which called for gender equality in schools, nearly 4,500 public high schools in the U.S."about 28% of the nation's public schools"have "larger gender inequality in sports," reported The Atlantic, which cited data from the National Women's Law Center. 13. Retired women are twice as likely as retired men to live in poverty. Eleven percent of women age 65 and older live below the poverty line compared with 6.6% of men, according to CNNMoney. And women of retirement age rely on a median income of about $16,000 a year, which is around $11,000 than men of the same age. 14. Women of all ages are, in fact, more likely than men to live below the poverty line. Across the U.S., 15.5% of women live in poverty compared with 11.9% of men, according to a report from the Institute for Women's Policy Research. That number worsens for black, Hispanic and Native American women. Worldwide, the majority of the more than 1 billion people living in poverty are women, according to the U.N.

  • PRO

    Men who enjoy pornography are just men in most feminist...

    modern day feminism does more good than harm

    I can admit that misandry is not held accountable 1/3 of the time, and in the feminist community we do recognize misandry and how much of it is in the "feminist" family even thought we do our best to seperate them from us because they are RADICAL feminist. Men who enjoy pornography are just men in most feminist eyes, because women to enjoy pornography. All of your arguement is radical feminist, not feminist like Rowan Blanchard, Malala, etc and it sadens me that you only see that side of feminism not the kind that empowers everyone. Here's some quotes that are great from great feminist idols. "When the whole word is silent, even one voice becomes powerful","I believe in equality, and I believe there is no difference between a man and a woman."-Malala Yousafzai a powerful feminist who helps put middle-eastern girls into schools.eminism itself is incredible but now when it's in a misandrist hands who only holds radical views. I'd like to add that 99.9% of feminist are for Bernie Sanders and if we hated men so much we would be voting for Hillary because she's a woman.

  • PRO

    I like your argument but it looks like you are trying to...

    Feminism is currently helping us reach gender equality in 1st world countries

    Thank you for your argument. I like your argument but it looks like you are trying to prove me wrong buy differing into a different argument saying that "Now this I am going to disagree with. If you click on the link what the statistic shows is that the ratio of men to women in college is quickly become a ratio with much more women than men. That's right. Women are actually getting more college level education than men." You go onto say they don't take the opportunities they are given but they aren't given any more opportunities then men this has no backing and there is no backing they have been given equal opportunities either. The part that you failed is agreeing with me the argument is "Feminism is currently helping us reach gender equality in 1st world countries" and here you say you agree with equality for all humans "Women should have equal rights and opportunities" I completely agree I am egalitarian and believe in equality for all humans. so there you agree with my pro argument Thank you

  • PRO

    I find this ad wrong in many levels, affecting both...

    The new Pantene ad feminist ad "not sorry" is a terrible ad and a bad influence of feminism.

    The recent Pantene campaign "Sorry, not sorry" encourages women to not apologize. I find this ad wrong in many levels, affecting both reputation of I find this ad wrong in many levels, affecting both reputation of feminism and modern society negatively first round acceptance only. this will be my first debate on debate.org note: I am a english as second language speaker. http://youtu.be...