• PRO

    That is completely unfair to men who are suffering from...

    Modern Feminism Is Pointless

    Okay, first thank you for keeping this debate professional as a lot of these debates go the opposite way. However, your argument points out the very problem I have with feminism. I noticed how you didn't respond to ALL of my points only to the ones you thought you could counter. You completely ignored the point I made about most women thinking they shouldn't be in combat in the Armed Forces. It shows that the feminist movement is sadly hypocritical because they claim to want the same treatment as men yet they are unwilling to fight and die alongside men for their country. I believe women can be viewed as equals, but so far I have seen very little effort from women especially feminists to do that. I am a strong supporter of America's Armed Forces, and it frustrates and makes me angry when women say they can be equal to men in anything yet they don't want to fight alongside men and some very brave women for a country who would be very grateful for their sacrifice if they were willing to sacrifice for it. Another thing that frustrates me is Breast Cancer "Awareness". There is an entire month dedicated to fighting breast cancer, but here is a very sad fact that most Americans seem to ignore. More men die from prostate cancer than women from breast cancer (it's on the internet and very easy to find). That is completely unfair to men who are suffering from prostate cancer and would appreciate donations from willing donors, but most of the money goes towards breast cancer which is associated with women but men suffer from it as well. Now I will respond to your points. People don't think women are innocent right from the first glance, but women try to act like they are in an effort to get what they want. My uncle is fighting for the custody of his son against his wife who is throwing a lot of false accusations at him even though he has documents that prove those accusations wrong. Not once has the Judge asked proof that these accusations are true. He is taking her side because she is playing the role of the innocent woman. I am not saying all women do this, but whenever I see a woman in court she almost always tries to pull something like this. The reason people have the mindset that women are innocent most of the time is because women try and give them this mindset. A lot of good and caring fathers lose any custody of their children because in the divorce hearings the woman is almost ALWAYS favored. You may think this as a stereotype, but I see it happening a lot more as the years go by. My parents are divorced so I have experienced this first-hand. You say that most women who are raped are wearing sweatpants, yoga pants, or pajama pants. These are also considered revealing clothing to some and are not allowed at many schools in America. I also see a lot of women wearing these so they are either wearing the clothing I mentioned or the clothing you mentioned. Either way it doesn't help them in a rape situation yet they continue to wear these types of clothing. The clothing you mentioned reveals a lot because I can usually see underwear lines from those pants. Another thing is the suggestion that rape is only associated with women which is false. Males are also raped yet there is no mention of this in a feminist's rape argument. In the comments you said there is no reason for women to dress modestly. Believe it or not there are standards for men too as to what clothing is appropriate. There is a reason why men have to wear shirts in stores. There is a reason a guy sagging his pants is frowned upon in respected society. Women AND men are expected to dress appropriately in a social situation. Once again the "same treatment as men" argument comes into play in this situation.

  • CON

    Please note: This is in no way, shape, or form an attack...

    Feminism creates pseudo problems and is nowhere near as relevant as Feminists claim it is

    [Please note: This is in no way, shape, or form an attack on women] Feminism- In this day in age, I have been noticing a few feminists creating a series of pseudo-problems such as "there aren't enough women in video games" when clearly these 'problems' have simple answers; video game designers are catering to the majority in order to make a profit and not to 'oppress' women. What exactly is to be gained financially by appealing to the demands of the minority of your customer base? Causes like this are near pointless due to the fact they are overanalyzed until they become a direct threat and/or threat against women. Wage gap- Moving on to women in the workplace, Feminists will argue that for every $1.00US a man makes a woman will make $0.80US. However, these same feminists fail to point out the fact that men typically do not quit their jobs to raise a family, are less likely to work part time, are more likely to go into a career path in which one is expected to perform laborious activities in extremely strenuous conditions, and are more likely to retire at a elderly age thereby getting the benefit of seniority. These factors are completely left out to make it seem as if the female population is being oppressed within the working environment. It is up to the individual to choose what career pathway they work in and due to the fact that many women prefer fields that do not require strenuous work or physical labor, naturally, they will be making less money than their male counterparts. Feminism cannot force women into fields that they do not wish to work in. Abortion- Regardless of your opinions about the morality of this subject, Feminists constantly argue that this is a woman's rights issue. However, the legality of aborting a human fetus has never been a woman's rights issue; it has always been a human's rights issue and about determining whether or not it is moral to kill a unborn child due to personal choices and/or financial reasons. Feminism is not needed to determine this. Sexual Violence- Women are sometimes the victims of sexual violence and Feminists will claim that men need to be taught not to rape. Sexual violence is a very real problem and should not exist. However, the solution that the Feminists have proposed is ineffective for the population as a whole due to the complex ways that one specific human will develop and react to a certain environment when compared to another human. Consider this: If we could reduce the rate of a crime to zero simply by telling someone not to commit it, why does murder still exist in this society? Besides sociopaths and psychopaths, I highly doubt you would run into any man in the street who thinks rape is acceptable. As a side note, the solution mentioned above implies that all men are potential rapists and need to be feared. With this logic, one can say that all humans are potential murders and need to be taught not to murder. If I recall correctly, I was never taught not to murder and learned simply from observing the reactions of fictitious characters in movies and the people in my surrounding environment. I was only able to do so due to the fact I live in a society that already perceives rape as a heinous crime. Feminism's proposed solution of educating men against it is not the most beneficial to stopping it. A much better solution would be simply to have young males and females be much more cautious when they are out with someone they do not know or trust. Conclusion- These constant streams of pseudo problems and duplicitous claims leads me to the conclusion that Feminists are simply trying to find anything to latch on to, victimizing themselves in the most bizarre ways imaginable in order to stay relevant.

  • PRO

    Feminism represents a small, privileged constituency of...

    Feminism represents a small, privileged constituency of middle-class white women, who can afford to ...

    Feminism represents a small, privileged constituency of middle-class white women, who can afford to worry about relatively insignificant issues like executive pay and body image; meanwhile the problems suffered by women across the world, such as poverty, hunger and racism (none of which are exclusively female problems) are ignored.

    • https://debatewise.org/debates/2701-feminism/
  • PRO

    Many women no longer identify themselves as feminists,...

    Many women no longer identify themselves as feminists, associating feminism with man-hating, sex-hat...

    Many women no longer identify themselves as feminists, associating feminism with man-hating, sex-hating humourlessness, and seeing it as a relic of the 1970s. Modern women are perfectly capable of competing with men on equal terms, and they resent suggestions that they need special treatment.

    • https://debatewise.org/debates/2701-feminism/
  • CON

    One being reproductive "rights" and the other being rape...

    Modern Feminism (3rd/4th Wave) is Unnecessary as well as Unfair to Men.

    Pro: "My opponent argued on a platform of Islamophobia." Nope. I'm not Islamophobic. My family are all Muslims. I'm a truth lover. Pro: "used biased sources" Such as ABC News, Wikipedia, Wikipedia, and Wikipedia again Huffington Post...2 are sources that Pro himself used. * Pro: "He also willingly argues only Islamic countries to avoid the issue." Nepal is 81% Hindu. 9% are Buddhists. https://en.m.wikipedia.org... * Pro: "Rape was labeled untouchable and he violated this rule." Note: Pro just used rape in this debate. Pro's definition of rules was unclear and ambiguous even according to someone in the comments section. And I quote: "I am not going to exclude more than two things." "One being reproductive "rights" and the other being rape rates. Sexual harassment/groping is fair game." * Pro: "there was an Afghan queen." Who was not voted for. She was also the wife of King Amanullah Khan and under his authority which is a false dichotomy by ommiting information by Pro. She also "studied in Syria, learning Western and modern values there, which would influence her future actions and beliefs," according to Wikipedia, and showing an example of Western "One being reproductive "rights" and the other being rape rates. Sexual harassment/groping is fair game." * Pro: "there was an Afghan queen." Who was not voted for. She was also the wife of King Amanullah Khan and under his authority which is a false dichotomy by ommiting information by Pro. She also "studied in Syria, learning Western and modern values there, which would influence her future actions and beliefs," according to Wikipedia, and showing an example of Western feminism affecting the mindset of those from other cultures. https://en.m.wikipedia.org... * Pro: "I firstly would like to say that women are now advocating for their own transport "for protection from men." And isn't being taken seriously in America because it has not been successful in other countries, and it is considered "discriminatory towards men." http://www.telegraph.co.uk... http://m.huffpost.com... * Third and Fourth wave feminism are protected by freedom of speech. It is also protected by the seperation of church and state, like it or not. http://www.spiked-online.com... https://en.m.wikipedia.org... * Pro: "Domestic abuse is more often than not caused by women against men." Pro used Youtube as their only source on this point. Nevertheless, In the debate about violence, men more often side with violence than women do. -"Whether it is in acts of violence such as rape or murder, or violence such as rioting, gang murders or war, men play a role that far exceeds that of women. Women are more likely to be the victims, rather the perpetrators, of violent crime." https://disorderedworld.com... * Pro: "To summarize the point of these videos, in domestic violence, men under report their abuse." Then how does anyone know they are under reporting something they never report? * Pro: "One day, my wife attacked me with a 2x4 while I was sleeping." Don't date or marry crazy females. * Pro: "Women can commit the same crimes as a man, and receive lighter sentences." Notice the word "can". Men also "can" receive lighter sentences than women. * Pro: "Feminism in the West is an overzealous belief that will not stop until women get their turn at oppressing men." Pro is stating an opinion and making a prediction, not stating a fact. * I finish by quoting Pro. Pro: "Well this concludes the debate. Now I am going to criticize my opponent's argument. No offence, I'd do it to my own mother to win an argument."

  • PRO

    They feel that a man"s life should not be ruined simply...

    2nd wave and 3rd wave/modern feminism is harmful and should not exist.

    I am not arguing that the idea of feminism is bad, I am arguing that 2nd/3rd wave feminism is bad. Most may argue that my arguments only apply to the radical feminists, but the radical feminists are the famous and widely-known feminists that taint feminism. In countries like the USA, women have it much better thanks to laws like affirmative action or VAMA. (which is very unneeded and sexist) 1.Feminists victimize women, and assume all men are predators . If this is not misandry, then I honestly don't know what is! This is the most falsified claim feminism has made. There are many women who get let off free for raping a child, or a man. Just because men can't get pregnant, doesn't automatically make them rapists and unable to be raped. 2.Have a look at the second-wave feminist view of men for an example. Valerie Solanas, the radical feminist who shot Andy Warhol in 1968, provides a famous example of misandry in her self-published SCUM Manifesto. In case you're wondering, SCUM is an acronym for "Society for Cutting Up Men", practically a call for gendercide, the culling of men. Quite literally, Solanas expressed her desire to "institute complete automation and destroy the male sex." 3.Think "Violence Against Women Act" " notice something wrong in that? Notice how violence against men or children is not mentioned? VAWA implies, through it"s title alone, that men are the primary perpetrators of violence " despite 30 years of research and in excess of 130 scientific studies proving that intimate partner violence is roughly mutual. Time and time again, the results say the same "men and women are equally violent towards one another". And yet, when feminists demand preferential treatment or additional "rights", the government promptly delivers, like a good boy." Links for the next argument(s)(in order). 4. http://www.glennsacks.com... http://web.archive.org... http://web.archive.org... http://www.bbc.co.uk... http://londonfeministnetwork.org.uk... http://www.bbc.co.uk... http://www.thisislondon.co.uk... http://pubpages.unh.edu... http://i.imgur.com... http://www.law.fsu.edu... http://www.firstpost.com... http://www.jpost.com... http://rinow.org... http://www.weeklystandard.com... http://www.legislature.mi.gov... Father"s rights group want shared parenting (equal custody) to be the default if both parents want custody and neither parent is unfit. They feel that men should not be punished for being men, and that women should not be awarded custody to their kids simply for being women. Currently women are awarded primary custody almost all the time, even if the husband was the stay-at-home Dad and the woman was the breadwinner. Feminists fought against this. You can read NOW"s own statement here. Also note their usage of anti-male lies, i.e. "fathers are abusive, don"t give them custody." That is from 1997, but still remains valid today. Men want protection against false rape allegations. They feel that a man"s life should not be ruined simply on the allegation of a woman who may be a vindictive liar. Currently, a woman can accuse a man of rape for no reason, and the man"s name is splashed in the paper and his life is ruined. So, they fought for laws granting men anonymity until charged with the crime of rape"not convicted, just charged. Feminists fought against this, causing it to fail. Also see here, the London Feminist Network campaigning to defeat the proposal. "The London Feminist Network is a campaigning organisation uniting London based feminist groups and individuals in activism." Men want an end to the justice system favouring women simply because they are women, and giving men harsher sentences simply because they are men. Feminists fought against this, arguing that no woman should be sent to jail, even women who had murdered multiple people. Men want equal treatment when victims of domestic violence, and to not be arrested for the crime of "being male" under primary aggressor policies. Feminists fought against this by trying to suppress evidence showing that half of domestic violence is done by women, by threatening the researchers with bomb threats, death threats, etc. Modern, younger feminists are doing it as well. And sadly, they were successful in this effort of propaganda. For decades, and continuing today, violent men are (rightfully) convicted and punished by the state, while violent women are left to freely terrorize and harm their partners. The feminist definition of domestic violence has skewed arrest and prosecution philosophies, resulting primarily in having only male batterers criminally pursued. Men want female rapists to be arrested, charged, and convicted with rape. In Western countries, women are rarely punished when raping men, due to the biased legal system. In some countries, women cannot be punished when raping men, since rape is defined as a male-perpetrated crime. Feminists fought against this in India, arguing that "there is a physicality [in] rape" and that it would make things "more complicated for judges." Feminists fought against this in Israel, claiming that changing the law would result in men filing false rape claims. Men don"t want to be thrown in jail because they lost their jobs and temporarily cannot pay child support. Feminists fought against this, trying to lower the amount to $5000 before a man is guilty of a felony for not paying child support. If a man loses a decent-paying job, he will now be a felon, go to jail, lose his right to vote, AND be unable to find future jobs"if he cannot regain an equal-paying job within a few months. Men want equal economic support and help from the government. When the recession hit, male-dominated fields like construction lost millions of jobs, while female-fields like education and healthcare gained jobs. So the government proposed an economic stimulus for those fields. Feminists successfully fought against this, arguing that it was discrimination to support men, and caused the government to give money to women who didn"t deserve it. Hundreds of professional feminists complained against the "sexism" of helping men (who had lost jobs) and not women (who had gained jobs). A representative of the Michigan National Organization for Women testified in opposition to the Revocation of Paternity Act, which stopped the old law which stated that if a woman was married and cheated on her husband, the resulting child is considered to be legally the husband"s and the biological father had no legal rights to fight for custody or parenting time with his biological child. As you can see, the claim that feminism fight for men"s rights is a blatant lie. Don"t believe any feminists that say that. Feminists fight for women"s rights. That is a good thing. Feminists also are happy to harm men"s rights, as shown above. That is a bad thing. Feminism is about female privilege, not equality. Some may argue that these cases of feminists harming men is not "representative" of feminism. I ask you: Are there any cases of feminists helping men? No. Yet, there are many cases of feminists harming men. It is reasonable to conclude from these facts that feminism fights to harm men. 5. Quotes of Famous and powerful feminists. "Life in this society being, at best, an utter bore and no aspect of society being at all relevant to women, there remains to civic-minded, responsible, thrill-seeking females only to overthrow the government, eliminate the money system, institute complete automation, and destroy the male sex." ~Valerie Solanas, the SCUM Manifesto "The simple fact is that every woman must be willing to be identified as a lesbian to be fully feminist." ~National NOW Times "I feel that "man-hating" is an honourable and viable political act, that the oppressed have a right to class-hatred against the class that is oppressing them." ~Robin Morgan, Ms. Magazine Editor "To call a man an animal is to flatter him; he"s a machine, a walking dildo." ~Valerie Solanas "I want to see a man beaten to a bloody pulp with a high-heel shoved in his mouth, like an apple in the mouth of a pig." ~Andrea Dworkin "Rape is nothing more or less than a conscious process of intimidation by which all men keep all women in a state of fear" ~Susan Brownmiller (even though women are less than 40% of rape victims...) "The more famous and powerful I get the more power I have to hurt men." ~Sharon Stone "In a patriarchal society, all heterosexual intercourse is rape because women, as a group, are not strong enough to give meaningful consent." ~Catherine MacKinnon "The proportion of men must be reduced to and maintained at approximately 10% of the human race." ~Sally Miller Gearhart "All men are rapists and that"s all they are" ~Marilyn French "Sex is the cross on which women are crucified " Sex can only be adequately defined as universal rape." ~Hodee Edwards "Women have always been the primary victims of war. Women lose their husbands, their fathers, their sons in combat." ~Hillary Clinton (How does that make women the victims...? The men are the ones that died or got caught as war criminals!)

  • PRO

    But Farrell also wanted the women to see what it was like...

    Feminism is no longer about gender equality

    I would like to thank the Con for challenging me with that well-written response, this debate should be a good one. I also applaud my opponent for recognizing the fact that discrimination against men and boys does exist and that there are feminists who could be described accurately as misandrists. This is progress of a kind, because when I type the word misandry the spell-check reminds me that many people don't believe hatred or discrimination against men exists. The problem is that these radical feminists and there ideas are not on the fringe but are actually the feminist orthodoxy. Its clear that feminist organizations are inherently gynocentric, that the men in these organizations are a small minority and the male point of view completely non-existent. Warren Farrell (http://en.wikipedia.org...), the only man to be elected three times to the board of NOW (National Organization for Women) in New York, found himself quickly falling out of the favour of feminists as soon he began sharing the the male perspective and raising issues concerning men. "Farrell was leading anti-sexism workshops on college campuses across the country [...] [He] made men participate in "beauty pageants" to make them see what it was like for women to be judged on their looks alone. The feminists were good with that; they loved him; they sponsored him; they took him out to dinner and told him how wonderful he was. But Farrell also wanted the women to see what it was like to be a man. Men, according to Farrell, "take 152 risks of rejection from first eye contact with a woman until intercourse." He decided that women should have to participate in a role-reversal exercise in which they were forced to ask a man out. The feminists did not like that. According to Farrell, most of them, after watching the men go through the beauty contest, walked out when it came time to participate in the role-reversal "date." But Farrell's biggest argument with feminists came in the mid- to late '70s, when, one by one, NOW chapters across the country came out in support of giving mothers primary custody of children in cases of divorce." (Save the males: http://www.salon.com...) None of this made Warren any less of a an advocate for women's rights and freedoms, yet there was something unacceptable about this to feminists. Farrell eventually found himself excommunicated from the feminist community and blacklisted from media appearances. All because he tried to be fair and give men equal representation within the feminist movement. It is indisputable that feminism has a strong female bias and membership, and as a consequence, is incapable of being equal. Now with the other issues you raised, albeit off topic, its really a difference between equality of opportunity or equality of outcome. What's important is that women have equal rights, freedoms, and opportunities, but the outcomes don't have to be equal in every way and shouldn't be imposed.

  • CON

    So what have we found out? ... [1]...

    On balance modern Feminism is beneficial to the modern United States.

    Thank you! I'm sure plenty of people from every group have those types of people who shut you down before you can even present an argument. I'm kind of wishing this was 5 rounds now, as this is fun. Economic Injustice There is a huge difference between 77 cents to the dollar and a 23% earnings difference between men and women. 77 cents to the dollar implies women are paid 77 cents when a man is paid one dollar for the same job. This is not the case, and a site giving an "example" with no sources to back it up doesn't quite cut it, unfortunately. A 23% earnings difference between males and females implies the total earnings for men would be (for example) $100,000 a year (because of the types of job men pursue), whereas the total earnings for women would be $77,000 a year (also due to the types of jobs they pursue). I am not denying there is a difference in average income, but this is quickly shown to be anything but a patriarchy, or sexism, or discrimination, or any sort of negative bias against women, simply by looking at the types of jobs women have, and the types of jobs men have. Are men more qualified to work hard labour jobs due to their physique and willingness to push themselves and their muscles? It would be fair to say so, and it just happens jobs that require brute strength also pay more, due to how demanding this line of work is. Are women more qualified to work in childcare, due to their instinctive "motherly" nature and willingness to look after children. Unfortunately in a lot of cases, child care doesn't pay a hell of a lot. Although I'm familiar with some day cares who earn upwards of $800/child/month, it does take at least a year of schooling to work with them. So right away, we see that men earn more on average due to the types of jobs they pursue. So why is it women aren't represented enough in higher up, CEO positions, or politically? Well, quoting the Guardian, "A 2006 survey found that while 80% of women felt underpaid, two-thirds had never asked for more money" [1]. Now the article goes on to say it's stressful for a woman to ask for more money due to the "pay gap," but wait, back up - Women won't ask for more money because... they aren't getting as much money? It's stressful as hell asking for a raise, I've asked for a couple, and I remember how incredibly nervous I was. This has nothing to do with it being a "women's issue" being stressed while asking for a raise, it's an all around issue. Asking for more money - no matter who you are - can be very stressful. So now that that's out of the way, we have to figure out why women don't ask for raises or promotions as much as men. Without doing research, I came up with a hypothesis (judging by how my female friends and colleagues act in comparison to their male counterparts) that women feel the need to "complete" their current job, or gain as much knowledge as possible in their current job before attempting to advance to a higher up position, whereas men tend to ask right off the bat for a promotion. On a side note - my very first job was at a four star restaurant, and I started as a bus boy, or busser (for the gender-neutral people, lol) and within the first month of working there, I told the GM I'm working at becoming a manager at this restaurant and I want him to know that I'm willing to do what it takes to advance to this position. Yes, it was nerve racking, but it felt natural to ask for a position like this right off the bat, knowing full well I'm not even 2/3 familiar with my current position yet. The one girl who was a busser continued until she was asked to move up, as she said she was comfortable bussing and didn't "feel the need" to move around in the company. Yes, this could have been an isolated situation, but wait! Here's an article to back my "hypothesis" up with [2]. So what have we found out? Women tend to work jobs that are more fit for their "gender traits," mostly child care, which unfortunately doesn't pay as much. Women tend to not ask for promotions or raises as much as men. Unfortunately, neither of these is definitive proof that the gap exists within the same job, between a male and female of equally qualified characteristics. This gap is anything but across the board [3], and as you can see - women (on average) are paid more than men for a lot of jobs. Some people are able to perform better for certain jobs, and it happens that the majority of one gender usually performs better for most types of jobs. I just found out (I may be out of the tennis loop...) that women earn as much as men do in Tennis. ...Makes sense, right? ...Well no, it doesn't. Not at all. Women play the best of three, while men play the best of five. Right off the bat, men work longer. This also means less time for ad revenue, and statistics show that less people watch women's tennis than mens [4]. So let's see if this is fair: Women work less, generate less views, less ad revenue, yet they get paid the same as their male counterparts? Of course you could argue that feminism is trying to abolish this unjust payment, but hey... of course it isn't. Feminism does what's best for women, and if men happen to benefit, these benefits are plastered all over as "YES, MEN BENEFIT FROM FEMINISM TOO!" - Even though it was a simple product of feminism helping women. Of course your company isn't going to ask how well you sleep or how you handle a lack of sleep - they could consider it simply because of your gender (hold on, let me continue), and the "idea" that men can handle a lack of sleep more than women goes to show that men could be considered more productive due to this idea. If you were an employer, would you prefer someone who got burnt out after 8 hours, or someone who is able to work 10+ hours without getting burnt out? Now this isn't necessarily "fair" per se, but it isn't discrimination based on gender. The employer is simply considering who would be the most appropriate candidate for the position he's offering. The way I see it all is if an employer provides actual reasoning as to why he isn't paying a woman as much as a man, or vise versa, or hired a man over a woman, that's good enough. It's his call to make. Saying he's sexist because he feels the man is more fit for the job than a woman, with an actual reason other than "because he's a man," is absolutely ridiculous and is attempting to take all responsibility off the woman. You bring up a good point regarding poverty and homelessness, so thank you. However I guess I may as well bring up Cancer related primarily for men and women. Approximately 30,000 men will die in 2014 from Prostate Cancer, and 40,000 women will die by the end of 2014 from Breast Cancer. In 2012, $265,000,000 was funded for Prostate Cancer research, whereas $600,000,000 was funded for Breast Cancer research [8]. These numbers just don't add up. Less than half is funded for Prostate Cancer, when Prostate Cancer deaths still make up 75% of Breast Cancer deaths. So let's put the poverty levels aside, and look at the general populations' view on deadly cancer for each gender. You see Breast Cancer ribbons everywhere, NFL teams wear pink to support Breast Cancer, you can't deny the fact that Breast Cancer is funded much more than Prostate Cancer, and it's much more involved with the media, even though it only affects a slightly larger amount of women than Prostate Cancer does men. The only thing regarding the pay gap I can agree with you on is that men do get paid more than women in general. An employer that gives a valid reason as to why he pays a male less than another male holds the same validity when he gives a reason as to why he pays a female less than a male, or vise versa. Poverty affecting women doesn't have anything to do with opportunity or equal rights, as I've proved that women don't ask for as much as men, and generally don't commit to the same high-paying jobs as men do. Domestic Violence I thought you would bring that up, and the only real thing I have to say about this is equality. They don't take the woman beating the man seriously, just like they don't take the man being beaten by the woman seriously. Both are equally negatively effected. A gender issue is not an equality issue. Women choose lesser-paying jobs, and choose not to advance as much as men. The difference between Christianity and the KKK is there's a clear difference between the two. Feminism and "feminazis" - not so much, in regards to social media attention and coverage. I've encountered, personally, more women who identify as feminists that are rude, disrespectful, hate men, and want female superiority than "true" feminists. Conclusion I'm all for equal treatment, however I don't believe we have any reason to think we aren't treated equally. Because some people have it worse than others does not mean they weren't given the same opportunities as their counterparts. If feminists, for example, changed the name of their group to "egalitarianism," it would get rid of the extremists and erase that blip entirely. Numbers are numbers. What are the reasons behind these numbers? Discrimination? Sexism? Or simple "poor" choice on behalf of the victims? My video shows both men and women are treated poorly. Hope you got a good sleep! [1] http://www.theguardian.com... [2] http://knowledge.wharton.upenn.edu... [3] http://www.news.com.au... [4] http://www.heraldsun.com.au... [5] http://www.cancer.org... [6] http://www.cancer.org... [7] http://www.cancer.gov... [8] http://www.cancer.gov...

  • CON

    Women are more likely than men to leave the workforce or...

    Feminism is not needed in America anymore and is corrupting some minds.

    Thanks for the debate, Pro. [1] Pro: "Feminism use [sic] to be a great movement. I am totally for gender equality and women have that in America." (A) Feminism is still for gender equality. The vast majority of feminists believe so, and criticize those who support female or male supremacy. (B) Women do not have gender equality in America, as will become clear. [2.1] "Some feminist think that women make around 77 cents to a mans dollar." (A) The gap is smaller than that, but it still exists. [2.2] "women are more likely to work 35 to 39 hours a week when men are 4x more likely to work 40+ hours" (A) To quote the Bureau of Labor Statistics [1]: "[E]mployed men worked about three-quarters of an hour more than employed women. [...] This difference partly reflects women's greater likelihood of working part time. However, even among full-time workers (those usually working 35 hours or more per week), men worked slightly longer than women " 8.2 versus 7.8 hours. Among part-time workers, men averaged 5.2 hours on days they worked and women averaged 5.4 hours." Only considering full-time workers and number of hours worked, the 0.4 hour difference might justify a ~5% pay difference; however, the pay gap is far larger. Further, this difference in working hours is explained largely by women being forced to take care of children, which is unfair and perpetuates gender roles. The AAUW reported [2]: "[B]ecoming a mother can negatively affect women"s earnings, while becoming a father does not typically have the same effect (Correll et al., 2007). Women are more likely than men to leave the workforce or reduce their work hours after they have children, thus reducing their earnings (AAUW Educational Foundation, 2007). Research has found that even among full-time workers, mothers face an earnings penalty in the workforce compared with women without children (Correll et al., 2007)." Yet even for childless women, the pay gap exists [2]: "One year after college graduation, men and women have much in common. [M]ost women and men who had earned bachelor"s degrees the year before were young, single, childless, relatively inexperienced in the workplace, and working full time. We might expect to find little or no gender pay gap among this group of workers at the start of their careers. Yet just one year after college graduation ... [w]omen working full time earned $35,296 on average, while men working full time earned $42,918[.] These figures represent a female/male earnings ratio of 82 percent, which is slightly higher than it was in 2001 when, among the same group, women earned just 80 percent of what their male peers earned (AAUW Educational Foundation, 2007). .... Among those who did have children, though, both men and women earned more than their counterparts without children. Mothers tended to be older than other female graduates, which may account in part for their relatively higher levels of pay. Not surprisingly, among full-time workers just one year after college graduation, the pay gap cannot be explained by motherhood." [2.3] when women go into labor and have children when they come back there male counterparts will have more experience (A) See above. [2.4] men are more likely to go into dangerous but more highly paying jobs Dangerous jobs don't pay more than less dangerous jobs [3]. Consider that the 4 jobs with the most fatalities are farming, mining, transportation, and construction, often noted for their sky-high wages. [2.5] Now on that fact there are many different thoughts on whether it is based on how the brain is different between males and females or society but they have equal opportunity to work in those fields. Do women have equal opportunity? Consider that even little things, little discriminations (like the teacher tendency to underscore female achievement on STEM-related tests) can have massive consequences for female employment opportunities [4]. [3] Many (I don't know the exact statistic) women will be raped. Now what I am about to say buy no means do I support or feel bad for rapist it is horrible and sick. I would like to know what feminism can do about rape? Many rapist don't see women as sex objects or less than men but they crave sex. How they get it is sick and horrible but this is not due to sexism just the fact the they crave sex and will do disgusting things to get that. Not to mention many rapist are mentally ill. (A) Feminism opposes "rape culture" (in which many males and females think that they have some kind of right to sex, regardless of consent) which causes at least some rapes. Feminists have also set up numerous centers to assist rape victims. Feminists also led to the redefinition of rape from a male-vaginally-raping-female action to a much broader action that has led to justice for many men and women. In fact, the prevalence of female victims (maybe 75% of all rape victims are female) suggests that women need *more* relative power to men. [4] Women are not shown enough in high level jobs political or not. Now women have the opportunity to be in these jobs just like men. Look at Hilary. Me, I am against Hilary but if she makes it then good for her. Women can and will make it as high of a level job that men have been and are. Now for the fact that men dominate political jobs. Now this is my thought not really facts but men have had more rights than women longer than women have had equal rights. This means that women have not had the time men have had to get into office. Now this may be sad but it's true and that may be one reason. Another is that some people argue the senate and other political groups should be 50/50 males and females. The question here isn't why are we not allowing as many women into the government but it should be who is best for the job. If a man is better than the women hire him. If the women is better than the man hire her. (A) Women are about 20% of Congress members [5]. Women are 50% of the population. Can you seriously argue that men are 60% more skilled than women at governance? [1] http://www.bls.gov... [2] http://www.aauw.org... [3] http://amptoons.com... [4] http://nber.org... [5] http://www.cawp.rutgers.edu...

  • PRO

    Gender roles are not variables in todays phenomenon of...

    Third-wave feminism is about misandry and has nothing to do with gender equality

    I have condensed my opponent"s premises below: 1. Feminism=gender equality 2. More vacations are because of pregnancy 3. Fathers should be responsible for pregnancy too 4. Gender roles and stereotypes push women away from STEM 5. Bachelors are useless in STEM fields 6. Applicants for STEM are usually male 7. Companies don"t hire women because sexism 8. Women want CEO and board positions and we should give them more of these titles 9. Gender wage Gap is because of sexism 10. Stalin is not communist, Bin laden is not a Muslim, Homophobic church is not Christianity 11. WOMEN earn less than men=sexism Counter points 1. Gender equality means an equality of opportunity. These affirmative action policies only secure equality of outcome. Feminism demanding corporations to give women more money than men to close up a wage gap, has nothing to do with equality of opportunity, beating down men for special benefits for women in fact hurts men"s equality of opportunity. " 2. The statistic about working shorter hours and taking vacations does not include pregnancy in the equation. The study conducted vacations and pregnancy leave as two separate things. 3. Fathers are responsible, while females are pregnant and unable to work, the father continues to provide a stable income for the family. It is irresponsible to leave one"s job despite the fact that you are still able-bodied. 4. Countries like the former Soviet Union had no shortage of gender stereotypes and the government enacted several sexist policies. They however, had a larger role in STEM for women. When living in an oppressive and sexist society, women would actually participate in STEM more than in the current free world. Gender roles are not variables in todays phenomenon of women avoiding STEM fields. RAther, women simply tend to go to arts and humanities when given a free choice. Women don"t enter STEM just because, their psychology is different. Women"s brain circuitry is wired towards art and humanities therefore, women tend to gravitate away from STEM. Feminism forcing companies to hire more women has nothing to do with giving women choices but rather promoting an agenda. Most women when applying for STEM have a 2:1 advantage already, how much else is needed to take away more opportunities for young men entering STEM. 5. Women also earn more doctorates and masters than men. Your point about Bachelors being useless is irrelevant. 6. Most of STEM applicants are men but, women also have a 2:1 advantage and again women don"t choose to enter STEM because of their choice. 7. You have not proven that the supposed reason why companies don"t hire a lot of women is the result of some secret patriarchy. "" 8. Bill Gates, Amancio Ortega, Warren Buffet did not just get "hired" into CEO/board positions. They did not just start off as a CEO of a major company. They worked their way up this status from the bottom. You forget that these billionaires did not just protest against the government and just force their way into major and successful corporations. Yes, men make up the majority of billionaires BUT, majority of men are in low income jobs. Meanwhile, most women make up middle-income jobs so, if anyone has any income upward mobility advantage, it is not men but, women. Income mobility for EVERYONE is still quite high and if women truly want to get into high positions, they must start at the bottom like everyone. 9. Gender wage gap has nothing to do with sexism and everything to do with women"s personal choices. 10.Stalin is a communist, Osama Bin-Laden is a Muslim, Homophobic churches are still Christians. While one can condemn their actions, that does not change their ideology. Just because they force/ impose their beliefs on others, doesn"t change the fact that they are still the same ideology. ISIS might be radical Muslims but that doesn"t change the fact that they are Muslims. If I was 5 years old and drink alcohol, does that mean that I am no longer 5 years old? If you decide to wear a dress, does that make you no longer a man? Some Nazis didn"t want to kill Jews, does that mean Hitler is not a Nazi? America"s president and government have been under the Democrats for 8 years, now it is under the Republicans. Does that mean America is no longer America? If you are racist, being openly/secretly "prejudiced does not change the fact that you are still a racist. Ideology is still ideology regardless of practice. 11. Income has no correlation with virtue. Being "poorer" does not mean that you are a better person and that doesn"t mean that the richer person must have rigged the system. The world is not perfect and does not completely follow rules of statistics and probability. Flipping a coin does not guarantee a 50% Head, 50% Tails rate despite, being proven by math to do so. Just because there are two genders with relatively equal portions of the population does not guarantee an equal amount of pay among the two. " Feminism is not just some simple values or an ideological concept. It is a movement which is led by people and even if, the leaders turn away from their initial values, that does not mean that the movement is no longer the same movement. Feminism is merely a movement that adopted values from Egalitarianism. They have strayed from these concepts of equal opportunity and have focused on misandry. Feminism has changed and now promotes misandry. The movement has moved on from its ideology and therefore, I find it fair to criticize all of it aspects. I am not a feminist because they have moved on from it values. I am an egalitarian so, I still support gender equality but to beat down on men is simply not the answer we need to improve society.