• PRO

    i would have been concerned if it was 8 or 7, but 13? ......

    Feminism Needs to die out

    Irag: First off, we can talk about america because it has a similar problem, Yemen could have generally lazy women, have you thought of that? oh wait, you were to busy sterotyping men. Iragi: it could be the same here, its the women's fault they dropped out of school because they didnt pass any grades, and seriously? 13? i would have been concerned if it was 8 or 7, but 13? also, once again, the men are forced to marry to the women to, plus how do you know that the men in their 40's arent forced to get married to, its not the women's or the men's fault they are having terrorist attcks, im sure if the terrorist attacks end in your country, im sure the gender gap could be much smaller. and if iraq's constitution states that there should be equality, than its the women's own fault. Nepal: its still not the government's fault for them to not have an education, its not the governemnts fault that the women dont dump the boyfreind or call the police, women slap men all the time, and yet you say when men do it, its cruel? and at one point you say that men should not dictate their relitionships, and now you call them custodians? which is it? Turkey: and how do you know otherwise? how you know her husband doesnt let her get a job? how do you know a man killed his wife with a cooking pan without evidence the story was not fabricated? you do not know the statistics of all countries, so you definitly dont know what the percentage of violence against women afganistan: that story was a long time ago, karkhunda was just a victim of extremism, religon can be cruel, this is definitly not the first time, and im pretty sure their was women in that mob, once again its not the governments fault they cant afford child support, its no one fault that pregnant women died, and the reason why they are having forced mariges (which men get pressurized for too) bcause the population could be plummiting due to all the dying pregnant women, sure men and women dont like it, but it must be done. Mali: you just explained that women are just going though in mali what some perfer to go though in america, im pretty sure the man helps as well, because he had noo choice either, its either find someone to be married, or get married to a 51 year old. i know that men are just as stupid as women can be, im not saying that it is going to die out, im saying it should, because the more the i would have been concerned if it was 8 or 7, but 13? also, once again, the men are forced to marry to the women to, plus how do you know that the men in their 40's arent forced to get married to, its not the women's or the men's fault they are having terrorist attcks, im sure if the terrorist attacks end in your country, im sure the gender gap could be much smaller. and if iraq's constitution states that there should be equality, than its the women's own fault. Nepal: its still not the government's fault for them to not have an education, its not the governemnts fault that the women dont dump the boyfreind or call the police, women slap men all the time, and yet you say when men do it, its cruel? and at one point you say that men should not dictate their relitionships, and now you call them custodians? which is it? Turkey: and how do you know otherwise? how you know her husband doesnt let her get a job? how do you know a man killed his wife with a cooking pan without evidence the story was not fabricated? you do not know the statistics of all countries, so you definitly dont know what the percentage of violence against women afganistan: that story was a long time ago, karkhunda was just a victim of extremism, religon can be cruel, this is definitly not the first time, and im pretty sure their was women in that mob, once again its not the governments fault they cant afford child support, its no one fault that pregnant women died, and the reason why they are having forced mariges (which men get pressurized for too) bcause the population could be plummiting due to all the dying pregnant women, sure men and women dont like it, but it must be done. Mali: you just explained that women are just going though in mali what some perfer to go though in america, im pretty sure the man helps as well, because he had noo choice either, its either find someone to be married, or get married to a 51 year old. i know that men are just as stupid as women can be, im not saying that it is going to die out, im saying it should, because the more the feminism extremists acts grow, the incidents you have listed will be more and more servere, and the only way to end the cycle is to end feminism. and yes, those 2 debaters are messed up in the head.

  • CON

    Nepal: Only 25% of women are enrolled in higher education...

    Feminism Needs to die out

    The treatment of India is not the only reason why women are standing up for themselves; I only mentioned one just to give an idea/example of how women are being treated and a few others like physical and verbal violence, rape, buried alive; I mentioned them previously. Pro tells me that most feminism is happening in places where they weren't treated badly, but you haven't given me the names of these type of places. From what I know, most places like India, Yemen, Iraq, Nepal, Peru, Turkey, Afghanistan, Democratic Republic of Congo, Mali, Saudi Arabia, Jordan and America. Seems like a lot of countries to me; twelve countries in total. India : As I've mentioned before, new born daughters are buried alive or even aborted before birth; women have been treated with disgust by men, and reports show that thousands of women get raped Yemen: Access to education for girls is very limited, and many of them are married before the age of eighteen, Iraq: The Iraq War didn't improve the lives of women, and over the past thirty years, the number of women in the workforce has dropped down. Nepal: Only 25% of women are enrolled in higher education institutions; Nepal is one of the only world's countries where women's lifespans are less than that of men whereas throughout the world, women typically have a larger lifespan than men( I'm not trying to degrade men, but this is a fact). Education is not even considered as a norm for a Nepalese women, but marriage is and their lives have been dictated by their husbands, fathers or sons. Peru: 61% of women have been victims of physical abuse, and according to the World Health Organization, 52% of women have been slapped by their partner. Turkey: Only 29% of Turkish women are employed whilst 70% of males are, majority of the women are doing unpaid work, such as housework or childcare. Afghanistan: Probably one of the worst countries where women have been treated severely; Afghan women have been imprisoned due to running away from their abusive husbands, in 2013, violence grew against women in power, and there was an assassination attempt on a female member working in the parliament. Human Rights Watch report claims that things are getting worse for Afghan women. Democratic Republic of Congo: Now this country isn't just a dangerous place for women but for all citizens. Rape and sexual assault are common for the soldiers' aims to intimidate and threaten people. Daily Beast's ranking of best countries for women gave this nation a very low score: 13.6 out of 100. Mali: It is one of the world's poorest countries; where only a few females escape from genital mutiliation, one in ten of women in Mali die in pregnancy or childbirth, as many of them are into forced marriages when young. Saudi Arabia: Some things have improved in Saudi Arabia, such as giving the right for women to vote and allowing them to finally drive. However segregation against women still occurs such as not being allowed to leave the house without a partner or not being allowed to enter the Jannatul Baqee cemetery. Jordan: Women do not have an equal economic opportunity or participation and the unemployment of women is double the amount of men who are employed. America: Both women and men face rape and sexual assault, however women face more; 90 of females face rape whilst men only face 10 percent. Researchers have even shown that every 2 minutes an American is faced with sexual assault. So now you can see as to why feminism has shown a rapid growth among women?

  • PRO

    sure your with someone you don't want to be with but that...

    Feminism Needs to die out

    yes I see why, and it is still useless, all feminism did was increase the crimes against them, and I can counter with each and everything of your list. (except India of course) Yemen: access to education is limited to women? isn't that the same with men in America? many of them are married before the age of eighteen, what kind of problem is that? sure your with someone you don't want to be with but that isn't sexist against women, men are forced to marry underage too. Iraq: iraq HAS improved women lives, they have a lot more rights now, and the only reason why the workforce of women is shrinking is because many women prefer to go do their own thing. Nepal: wait, your upset by the fact that not all women are in charge of rulebooks, that is ridiculous, and 25% is a huge number statistic wise, not all women have a longer lifespan than men, how is that anyone's fault? Peru: so women can get away with slapping their partner but men cant? its obvious that the women their are tougher than the average women so they can take a slap, and recent events in America lets me think that half of that "61%" is just liars who just want the house to themselves. Turkey: again with the jobs? like I said before, women there like doing their own thing, your just grasping at straws at this list so far. Afghanistan: how do you know that the women running away was because of abuse? it could be a million things, maybe she didn't want to pay the bills, in 2013 you say violence grew against women in power, yet the only thing you could list was an assassination attempt from one women, ONE. and it could have been for a million things, NOT because for her gender Democratic republic of condo: you say that it is bad for ALL citizens, not just women, as such this does not count as women getting the short end of the stick, and the men would have given it low score to. Mali: you say only a few witness, that is not enough to confirm suspicion of "genital mutilation" in Mali, and its not the country's fault they cant afford women surviving pregnancy, and once again, men get into forced marriages as well. Saudi Arabia: you say things have improved for women, while also saying they cant leave the house alone, than how do you see them walking around the streets in the first place? and not allowed to see a cemetery? do you want me to bring in the face men are not allowed to go to a concert stadium? Jordon: again, women want to do their own thing, plus women can do their own economic opportunities America: possibly the most ridiculous thing on this list, all you have listed is an unproven theory, in fact, their are many men who cant open due to the fact that the government is always biased towards women. sure your with someone you don't want to be with but that isn't sexist against women, men are forced to marry underage too. Iraq: iraq HAS improved women lives, they have a lot more rights now, and the only reason why the workforce of women is shrinking is because many women prefer to go do their own thing. Nepal: wait, your upset by the fact that not all women are in charge of rulebooks, that is ridiculous, and 25% is a huge number statistic wise, not all women have a longer lifespan than men, how is that anyone's fault? Peru: so women can get away with slapping their partner but men cant? its obvious that the women their are tougher than the average women so they can take a slap, and recent events in America lets me think that half of that "61%" is just liars who just want the house to themselves. Turkey: again with the jobs? like I said before, women there like doing their own thing, your just grasping at straws at this list so far. Afghanistan: how do you know that the women running away was because of abuse? it could be a million things, maybe she didn't want to pay the bills, in 2013 you say violence grew against women in power, yet the only thing you could list was an assassination attempt from one women, ONE. and it could have been for a million things, NOT because for her gender Democratic republic of condo: you say that it is bad for ALL citizens, not just women, as such this does not count as women getting the short end of the stick, and the men would have given it low score to. Mali: you say only a few witness, that is not enough to confirm suspicion of "genital mutilation" in Mali, and its not the country's fault they cant afford women surviving pregnancy, and once again, men get into forced marriages as well. Saudi Arabia: you say things have improved for women, while also saying they cant leave the house alone, than how do you see them walking around the streets in the first place? and not allowed to see a cemetery? do you want me to bring in the face men are not allowed to go to a concert stadium? Jordon: again, women want to do their own thing, plus women can do their own economic opportunities America: possibly the most ridiculous thing on this list, all you have listed is an unproven theory, in fact, their are many men who cant open due to the fact that the government is always biased towards women. Feminism is a waste of time, is unneeded I most countries, the only places that it is needed is India and Lydia, and guess what? no feminist stand for those women, because like I said, they are selfish, a true women who stands for equal rights is an egalitarian, as I said before.

  • PRO

    Also, the fact that men are more likely to go into...

    Feminism is not needed in America anymore and is corrupting some minds.

    Feminism use to be a great movement. I am totally for gender equality and women have that in America. Here are some arguments I have heard. A) The "wage gap" Some feminist think that women make around 77 cents to a mans dollar. Now as this may be true the reason this is true is due to the fact that women are more likely to work 35 to 39 hours a week when men are 4x more likely to work 40+ hours. And when women go into labor and have children when they come back there male counterparts will have more experience. Also, the fact that men are more likely to go into dangerous but more highly paying jobs. Now on that fact there are many different thoughts on whether it is based on how the brain is different between males and females or society but they have equal opportunity to work in those fields. B) Many (I don't know the exact statistic) women will be raped. Now what I am about to say buy no means do I support or feel bad for rapist it is horrible and sick. I would like to know what feminism can do about rape? Many rapist don't see women as sex objects or less than men but they crave sex. How they get it is sick and horrible but this is not due to sexism just the fact the they crave sex and will do disgusting things to get that. Not to mention many rapist are mentally ill. C) Women are not shown enough in high level jobs political or not. Now women have the opportunity to be in these jobs just like men. Look at Hilary. Me, I am against Hilary but if she makes it then good for her. Women can and will make it as high of a level job that men have been and are. Now for the fact that men dominate political jobs. Now this is my thought not really facts but men have had more rights than women longer than women have had equal rights. This means that women have not had the time men have had to get into office. Now this may be sad but it's true and that may be one reason. Another is that some people argue the senate and other political groups should be 50/50 males and females. The question here isn't why are we not allowing as many women into the government but it should be who is best for the job. If a man is better than the women hire him. If the women is better than the man hire her. This is my argument on how Now on that fact there are many different thoughts on whether it is based on how the brain is different between males and females or society but they have equal opportunity to work in those fields. B) Many (I don't know the exact statistic) women will be raped. Now what I am about to say buy no means do I support or feel bad for rapist it is horrible and sick. I would like to know what feminism can do about rape? Many rapist don't see women as sex objects or less than men but they crave sex. How they get it is sick and horrible but this is not due to sexism just the fact the they crave sex and will do disgusting things to get that. Not to mention many rapist are mentally ill. C) Women are not shown enough in high level jobs political or not. Now women have the opportunity to be in these jobs just like men. Look at Hilary. Me, I am against Hilary but if she makes it then good for her. Women can and will make it as high of a level job that men have been and are. Now for the fact that men dominate political jobs. Now this is my thought not really facts but men have had more rights than women longer than women have had equal rights. This means that women have not had the time men have had to get into office. Now this may be sad but it's true and that may be one reason. Another is that some people argue the senate and other political groups should be 50/50 males and females. The question here isn't why are we not allowing as many women into the government but it should be who is best for the job. If a man is better than the women hire him. If the women is better than the man hire her. This is my argument on how Feminism is not needed in America as much or at all anymore.

  • CON

    Couple this with centuries of suppression and denial of a...

    Feminism is a poisonous belief system that needs to be done away with.

    Hello again! Thank you for your rebuttal. Firstly, when you say something like: "Every single issue that was brought up by you could be solved by egalitarianism."I could not agree more. You and I seem to be having serious differecnces about the definitions of some key words in this debate so I will clarify them again for you: 1. Feminism: It is a collection of movements and ideologies aimed at defining, establishing, and defending equal political, economic, and social rights for women. 2.Equality: the state of being equal, especially in status, rights, or opportunities I am saying that historically and all over the world feminism is an attempt at gender equality.A few feminists in western countries where feminism has already succeded in bringing gender equality to a certain degree may make absurd claims at times, but this does not reflect reality all over the globe, nor does it change the definition of Feminism itself. 1.Nature of equality I assert that giving support to someone who is suffering from a serious handicap is an attempt at equality.For example,building a ramp or reserving a special parking lot for someone suffering from an disability is not special treatment, but an attempt at equality. Women's bodies are generally weaker than men because their bodies undergo tremendous hormonal changes and discomfort to enable child rearing.A woman carries a baby in her womb for over 9 months, suffers pain that is roughly equal to breaking 20 bones, and risks her life itself to make new life possible.She then feeds it with her own blood for the next year or so.This is not something that is voluntary and is decided by nature at birth itself. Couple this with centuries of suppression and denial of a right to education and power as well as an ongoing prejudice in almost all spheres of life, and it will become obvious that women face a serious handicap that must be compensated for hence certain provisions were made in the laws of almost all countries. 2.Evidence for a bias in Nutrition and Healthcare For this I can assert that this is a common practice all over Asia through personal experience.Sons are seen as the future providers of the family and are usually given the best of everything.However, I could gather statistics only from India.There is a 35% excess female child mortality in India when compared to males and a 10% excess females who are malnourished. I have provided 2 research papers to support my claim in the sources[3] and[4] 3.Rebuttals a.Female Genital Mutilation When you are talking about male genital mutilation I seriously hope you don't mean circumcision.The removal of the foreskin does not impair a male's sexual function in any way, and is a widely recommended procedure even by modern doctors in certain cases of infection. Female genital Mutilation results in the woman being unable to experiecnce sexual pleasure for the rest of her life,has no medical purpose and leaves her much more vulnerable to a variety of infections, cyst formation and diseases.This is a widely prevalent practice all over the islamic world and i have already given adequate statistics to prove this in the opening statement itself. b.Bride Burning Once again the feminist movement in India is not that well developed and in vast areas of the country this contiues to exist inspite of the strict laws that feminist activists have succeded in implementing.If anything, this shows how relavant Feminism is in removing such unjust practices and the need for this movement to continue for a long time to come. c.Under-representation of women in Parliaments. I assert that most women stay out of politics mainly because of a variety of reasons that include: 1.Traditional Gender roles 2.Lack of suppport from families 3.Prejudice and insubordination of subordinates. In countries like Sweden and Rwanda where these 3 things do not exist because of successful policies of feminists,women have occupied upto 47.3% and 56% of the parliament across party lines.If women in these countries can do it why not in other countries too?Why can't we continue feminism till we can achieve a parliament that truly represents the population of women? d.Domestic Violence I never said anything about men being murderous psychopaths, because I am a man myself.I am glad you accept that more women die due to domestic violence. It is just that unlike in the states, in many countries, especially Islamic countries following Sharia'a law domestic violence is legally sanctioned and the perpetrators are almost exclusively male.The surah al-Nisah,34 in the Qura'an states: "Men are in charge of women by [right of] what Allah has given one over the other and what they spend [for maintenance] from their wealth. So righteous women are devoutly obedient, guarding in [the husband's] absence what Allah would have them guard. But those [wives] from whom you fear arrogance - [first] advise them; [then if they persist], forsake them in bed; and [finally], strike them. " Relevant statistics: 1. Domestic violence is so common that 85 per cent of women admit to experiencing it in Afganistan. 60% of all women report being victims of multiple forms of serial violence. 2. WHO, United Nations study, 30% of women in rural Bangladesh reported their first sexual experience to be forced. About 40% report having experienced domestic violence from their intimate partner, and 50% in rural regions report experiencing sexual violence. 3.The World Health Organization reported sharply increasing rates of domestic violence in Indonesia, with over 25,000 cases in 2007. Nearly 3 in 4 cases, it is the husband beating the wife; the next largest reported category were the in-laws abusing the wife. The higher rates may be because more cases of violence against women are being reported in Indonesia, rather than going unreported, than before These cases serve to illustrate what a wide spread problem domestic Violence is in the world.Even if 70% of the initiators are women in the US, we must consider the fact that they are physically weaker also. e.Saudi Arabia What you said was correct to some degree.I will now show you why the value of a woman's testimonial is considered irrelavant here: "In a document called A Country Law Study for Saudi Arabia which is not readily available and is considered restricted reading there it cites four reasons why women are not allowed to give evidence in a Sharia Court. It might be worth while stating them here: a.women by nature are forgetful and therefore testimony is unreliable not participating in public life, they are usually not capable of understanding what they observe b.they are dominated by men and will give testimony according to what the last man told them c.being more emotional than men they will distort their testimony accordingly" Conclusion I completely agree with you when you claim that some women feminists are taking feminism too far.But unfortunately, the facts speak for themselves and women still have a long way to go before we can even dream of a gender -equal world.Feminism would be the only vital thing that can achieve this till then. Kind regards, CynicalDiogenes Sources: 1.www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/feminism 2.http://factsfromfiction.blogspot.in...; 3.http://iussp2009.princeton.edu...; 4.http://www.indiastat.com... 5.http://www.theguardian.com...; 6.http://www.thelocal.se... 7.http://www.gu.se...; 8.Afghanistan - Ending Child Marriage and Domestic Violence Human Rights Watch (September 2013), pages 11-13 9.Violence against women World Health Organization (UN), 2012 10.Intimate Partner Violence WHO (UN), 2012 11.http://en.wikipedia.org...; 12.Gender-based violence in Indonesia, United Nations WHO (2008)

  • CON

    In India, in 2011 alone, the National Crime Records...

    Feminism is a poisonous belief system that needs to be done away with.

    Hello, I extend a very warm welcome to DDO and thank you for choosing to debate a topic that I feel very strongly about. I agree that *some* so called feminists,especially in the west, claim absurd things just to gain cheap publicity and distract people from real challenges women face around the world today.I am a feminist myself, but coming from a country like India, being a feminist means something totally different from what it has come to mean in the west. Feminism is a collection of movements and ideologies aimed at defining, establishing, and defending equal political, economic, and social rights for women. You claim in your opening statement that feminism itself should be done away with.Since you did not specify any particular region, I simply assumed that it meant from the entire world.This is where I disagree,because I believe that actual feminism is something that is a vital need in today's society. I will only give my opening statement explaining my stance in this round and will be providing rebuttals only in the second round. I claim that feminism is necessary because: 1.In most parts of the world Patriarchy is still followed Feminism is needed in the world today simply because in most parts of the world women are not even given basic rights.In Saudi Arabia for example, the testimony of one man is equal to the testimony of 3 women in a court of Law.Women can't even drive or go out without being accompanied by a Mahhram(A male relative who cannot marry the woman) or her husband. While this may seem like an isolated,extreme example, women actually face a lot of discrimination for not just education and freedom, but even for basic needs like nutrition and medical care in most parts of the world, especially in Asia and Africa.This is simply because there is a cultural bias against women in these societies that assigns traditional gender roles to women and requires them to stay inside their homes.Women are considered to be just the property of their husbands and there are a variety of practices that encourage violence against them I will just list 2 of the most barbaric practices that the Partiarchial culture of these countries dictates on women: a.Female Genital Mutillation This is a practice that is widely prevalent in many parts of the Muslim world which involves the removal of a woman's clitoris and the external genitals.It has absolutely no health benefits whatsoever and many rationalists in these countries claim that it is to prevent women from enjoying pleasure during sex. According to a 2013 UNICEF report, 125 million women and girls in Africa and the Middle East have experienced female genital mutilation. According to the same UNICEF report, the top rates for female genital mutilation are in Somalia (with 98 percent of women affected), Guinea (96 percent), Djibouti (93 percent), Egypt (91 percent), Eritrea (89 percent), Mali (89 percent), Sierra Leone (88 percent), Sudan (88 percent).To think that over 80% of all women in these countries actually have their own privates mutilated must give you an idea about how patriarchially biased these societies must be. b.Bride Burning and Dowry Violence In most parts of India(my own country), the second most populous country in the world a weird custom is followed by almost everyone, where the bride's family is expected to pay exorbitant amounts of mmoney to the groom simply for agreeing to marry her.Many men keep demanding their dowry well after marriage is over and often, women are killed by the husband or his family if they are not satisfied with the dowry. In India, in 2011 alone, the National Crime Records Bureau reported 8,618 dowry deaths, while unofficial figures suggest the numbers to be at least three times higher.You must realise that this is greatly under-reported because of the state of society here. While this practice has been outlawed,and strict punishments are awarded to those who get convicted, most families are unwilling to bear the shame of being unable to pay dowry and do not even report cases until the bride commits suicide or is murdered. Any movement that aims to end this widespread and barbaric violence should necessarily be good for the World as a whole today. 2.Women are extremely under-represented even in most modern democracies Women constitute roughly 50% of the population of most countries.Yet they continue to be under-represented in most modern democracies.The United States currently has only 20 women senators and 82 women in the house of Representatives out of 435.The US is yet to see even a single woman elected as the president, while many Muslim countries such as Bangladesh and Pakistan already have a woman Head of state.On October 2013, the global average of women in national assemblies was a mere 21.5% While one may argue that the laws are fair and that there is nothing that prevents women from contesting in elections, one cannot simply ignore the invisible glass ceiling of the personal prejudices that many voters will have about voting for a woman. 3.Violence against women is prevalent even in Western and 'modern' countries You had agreed in your opening statement that most men were physically stronger than women and hence women get injured more during domeastic fights.However, you ignore the fact that a lot of them tend to be victimised by people who they know intimately and are regularly forced into abusive relationships due to various reasons. I will be refuting some of the statistics and arguments you gave and will demonstrate how widespread in even Western society. I would like to add that women are much more likely than men to be murdered by an intimate partner according to a number of trusted sources. In the United States, in 2005, 1181 women, in comparison with 329 men, were killed by their intimate partners. In England and Wales about 100 women are killed by partners or former partners each year while 21 men were killed in 2010. In 2008, in France, 156 women in comparison with 27 men were killed by their intimate partner. Most cases of abuse go unreported even in these countries and the number of women with abusive partners can never be known. Conclusion I hope these reasons alone show how far behind we are from achieveing true gender equality in the world.To declare feminism itself as wrong just because a few silly women trying to sound political claim absurd and irrational things is to completely ignore the pressing need for gender equality that is denied to women in most parts of the world today. With the mass immigration of Muslims into many parts of Europe and the growing demands of these immigrants to implement Sharia'a law,the future actually looks bleak for women. All these reasons make a belief that women need to be treated as equal extremely relavant in today's world.A political movement or ideology to overcome this bias against women that has existed probably since the beginning of time cannot be a 'poisonous belief system that needs to be done away with.' Hence I assert that Feminism is neccessary in today's world. Regards, CynicalDiogenes Sources: 1."Feminism – Definition and More from the Free Merriam-Webster Dictionary". 2.http://www.unwomen.org... 3."Intimate Partner Violence: Overview". Centers for Disease Control and Prevention. 2006. Retrieved 2007-09-04. 4.CDC – Consequences – Intimate Partner Violence – Violence Prevention – Injury. Cdc.gov. 5.http://www.who.int... 6.http://www.unicef.org... 7.http://en.wikipedia.org...'s_rights_in_Saudi_Arabia

  • PRO

    If attacking social norms require passion that vibrates...

    First World Feminism in the USA

    Roar! Bring it to me! === As we contemplate the reason for our existence, eventually, one way or another, we'll come across gender as part of our self-reflection process. We ask ourselves the biggest question of the day, "Why women?" and "Why not men?" and of course sometimes we receive the usual "Suck it up whether you like it or not" responses. Do these questions then, warrant a change in the social sphere? Why is it so necessary to cater to those oppressed? The Whole Women The concept of defining women is often subjected to absurd premises. Numerous cases, women are still simplified by their ovaries, by the amount of 'cleavage' that they possess, and are usually subjected to the usual train of misogynistic thought "You're like this because you're a women". Simone Beauvoir perfectly captures this exact plight accurately in her book "The Second Sex"(1): "Humanity is male, and man defines woman, not in herself, but in relation to himself; she is not considered an autonomous being." ~Simone Beauvoir The concept of the second sex still exists to this day. Institutionalized discrimination on a political scale may not exist, but the social stigma are still widely accepted and normalized throughout society, particular in the US. The purpose of feminism is to combat this stigma, with the same amount of fire if needed. If the language of civil debates isn't possible within these misogynistic individuals, feminists deserve every right to respond with the same amount of tenacity. Criticism directed at this premise usually involves something alone the line of "This is more of an emotional tirade than a rational discussion". The criticism is correct but in no way does it disprove feminist theories. The public sphere is often irrational, more so if it includes social norms, which is unquantifiable by nature. If the tone of discussion are unable to accept academic ways of discoursing, then neither group should sought the means to engage in it, rather, they should engage in whatever that is best for them. If attacking social norms require passion that vibrates by the string, then so be it, as long as the messages are conveyed successfully within the social sphere. One may ask "What's the point if both of them will simply reside in their own ignorance?". This sort of sweeping criticism, again, fails to address the issue. The point of controlling public opinion is to sway it by persuasion, and not by rational discussion, since people are more attuned to emotional passion, rather than a rational viewpoint. Jeremy Waldon, in his book "The Harm In Hate Speech" said "It was at the mercy of public opinion, and public opinion was looking well-nigh ungovernable"(2) in relation to society and power structures within it. He is correct, public opinion is ungovernable and almost impossible to influence unless one engage in the occasional persuasive rhetoric. If feminist desire equality, they have to overcome this obstacle first and the only way to do so, is to influence and engage in a speech that the general public accepts. It is as Simone puts it "Women discovers herself as the inessential and never turns into the essential, it is because she does not bring about this transformation herself." The transformation requires an emotional value which will then sway public opinion that translates into change for society. The premises surrounding feminism are justified, it is a net benefit to society as a whole. The means to achieve equality may not be rational, but if the final product results in equality, then there is no reason to suppress it. Sources: (1) The Second Sex, Simone De Beauvoir (2) The Harm In Hate Speech, Jeremy Waldon ===== I apologize for the short argument but I can't argue more than what I've said, I'm managing so many things at once. I have spring semester to handle, housing and classes to finalize. Sorry again. That is all for now. The floor is yours, con, I pray that this may engulf into a flamewar. Good Luck.

  • PRO

    I accept. ... I look forward to your opening statements...

    Feminism in society and what is useful for,Rape Cultures existence, Wage Gaps existence

    I accept. I look forward to your opening statements against feminism.

  • PRO

    Before starting, I would like to thank my opponent for...

    On balance, Feminism is not needed in the US anymore.

    Before starting, I would like to thank my opponent for accepting this debate. I will be arguing that On Balance, Feminism is not needed in the US anymore. I will provide examples on how the USA has surpassed the everybody in women rights, and how there are numerous examples of equality today. Note(100 years ago, people would not dare say women always beat men in arguments. Now, it is a general fact.) Terms: Balance- condition in which different elements are equal or in the correct proportions(In this case, America does have discrimination, but I will be arguing that the equality outweighs the inequality.) Needed-1.require (something) because it is essential or very important: Powered by Oxford Dictionaries Feminism- Feminism is a range of movements and ideologies that share a common goal: to define, establish, and achieve equal political, economic, cultural, personal, and social rights for women. This includes seeking to establish equal opportunities for women in education and employment. A feminist advocates or supports the rights and equality of women. Source-My opponent We will examine each quality that is essential to equality for women in this debate. Political Equality-First of all, women have a say in America. http://www.archives.gov... It clearly states that the United States of America cannot discriminate against a voter because of their sex. Now, I shall note how many female Governors there have been. A governor is a huge position of power in the United States of America. This should not be taken lightly. Female Governors: Gina Raimondo-Rhode Island Kate Brown-Oregon Maggie Hasson-New Hampshire Mary Fallin-Oklahoma Nikki Haley-South Carolina Susana Martinez-New Mexico Nellie Tayloe Ross-Wyoming Miriam A. Ferguson-Texas Lurleen Wallace-Alabama Ella T. Grasso-Coonecticut Dixy Lee Ray-Washington Vesta M. Roy-New Hampshire Martha Layne Collins-Kentucky Madeleine M. Kunin-Vermont Kay A. Orr-Nebraska Rose Perica Mofford-Arizonaasas Joan Finney-Kansas Ann Richards-Texas Barbara Roberts-Oregon Christine Todd Whitman-New Jersey Jane Dee Hull-Arizona Nancy P- Hollister-Ohio Jane Swift-Massachusetts Judy Martz-Montana Ruth Ann Minner-Delaware Linda Lingle-Hawaii Olene Walker-Utah Jennifer Graholm-Michigan Janet Napolitano-Arizona Kathleen Sebelius-Kansas Kathleen Blanco-Lousiana M. Jodi REll-Connecticut Christine Gregoire-Washington Sarah Palin-Alaska Beverly Purdue-North Carolina Jan Brewer-Arizona https://en.wikipedia.org... Before, I move on to the next argument, I want to stress that this is a very significant point. A governor is a very powerful position that many sexists 100 years ago would probably never think a woman would never hold. The idea that this has happened means that women have achieved political equality. Women are able to hold political offices, and benefit the rights of women as a result. Not only is this important in the local level, but also in the senate. There are 20 female senators which also serves a very powerful instrument for women rights. Economic Equality- I have heard the same tired argument from feminists claiming that women get paid less than men. I hope in this debate, I can at least clarify once and fore all that this is a myth. 1. Men are far more likely to choose careers that are more dangerous, so they naturally pay more. In the top ten most dangerous jobs(from the US Bureau of Labor Statistics), they are all male dominated jobs. As a result males will get paid more. 2. Males are for more likely to work in higher paying jobs-According to the White House Report, 7% of female professionals were employed in high paying computer fields, while 38% of males have gotten professional jobs. Females are also most likely to be in low-paying education and health care jobs. 3.Men work longer hours than women-Men work 6 hours per week, or 15percent longer than the average fulltime working women. 4. Men are more likely to pursue high-stress and higher-paid areas. 5. "Women business owners make less than half of what male business owners make, which, since they have no boss, means it's independent of discrimination. The reason for the disparity, according to a Rochester Institute of Technology study, is that money is the primary motivator for 76% of men versus only 29% of women. Women place a higher premium on shorter work weeks, proximity to home, fulfillment, autonomy, and safety, according to Nemko" http://www.cbsnews.com... I believe that I have gave solid cases on political equality and economic equality, but there is still cultural and social equality. The arguments that I will be making the next portion of this case is purely analytical. It would be laughable to leave a source, because I am expecting anyone with a life would know of this. Cultural and Social Equality: We expect that equality is realistic, and can happen. We saw this with the Civil Rights Movement, but there are still movements like Black Lives Matter. Why can't the common man just stop holding grudges against other races and the opposite gender of himself? Most people(Fox News) assume that racism is a thing of the past, while others think that there needs to be a radical movement(Internet) to cement equality into everyone's minds. I offer an alternative answer(not solution) to this problem which involves empirical evidence that most people have seen with there own eyes. We have all seen the kid that wears glasses. Some of us have seen that kid bullied in public schools, or others have seen him geek out in front of your own eyes. Either way, people have a general assumption about people that wear glasses. You must be either smart, weird, bullied, or innocent. I am assuming that people usually have this assumption. When one is an adult, they will probably think more on the lines of smart. Either way, these are assumptions about what kind of personality people with glasses have. Now, just imagine if that kid was an athletic superstar who was destined to go to the NFL. This could be probable, but highly unlikely. I will equate this to feminism. People have general assumptions about what each individual is just by taking one look. We have all done it, and it is nothing to be ashamed of. But, feminists think it is wrong, because no-one should have the assumption that a female is inferior. They should have the assumption that they are equal to us males. Well, here is the problem with that. You are never going to change someone's subconscious thinking. But, you can change what someone thinks consciously. That is why the war on women rights has been won. Social rules apply to people. At colleges where Political Correctness is reality, no one will dare say anything racist, because they know of the humiliating consequences of saying something like that. But, a PC person could just as easily look at a Chinese guy, and ask for help on his homework. The PC person did not ask anyone else, because in his experience Chinese people are usually really smart. Feminism has been successful in creating a world where is socially unacceptable to call a gender inferior. In a professional life, nobody would say do not hire her because that gender is inferior. Females are never going to hear that in there professional lives. The backlash is also very humiliating if someone ever says(discount Donald Trump) anything that hints at saying females are inferior. If a politician accidently says that, his carrier is done for. It is because of the circumstances, Americans are in that prohibits us from saying mean racist and sexist things. Here are the three reasons why this is the case. 1. Consequences of saying something like this is humiliating. 2. Females usually dominate the Teacher field making children have sub-conscious thoughts of female intelligence. 3. There are movies and TV shows dedicated to making one feel guilty about judging women. But, you cannot stop what humans think sub-consciously. http://www.theguardian.com... A good source for this is actually a study conducted about what happens in the subconscious part of your mind. "Researchers engineered a situation in which female participants heard a male experimenter make a sexist remark; some were then given the opportunity to call him out on it. Eric Horowitz explains the scenario:In each experiment, female participants first rated their beliefs about the importance of confronting prejudice and then engaged in a "Deserted Island" task with a confederate. The task involved selecting from an existing set of people those who would be most helpful on a deserted island. The confederate " chose all males until his final selection, when he justified his choice of a female with a sexist remark ("She"s pretty hot. I think we need more women on the island to keep the men satisfied.")Those who had the chance to challenge this remark, but didn't do so, rated the experimenter as less sexist " and challenging sexism as less important " than the others. Which would seem to be a case of cognitive dissonance in action: when you're confronted by prejudice and you don't object to it, your own attitudes shift in a more prejudiced direction, to maintain consistency between your behaviour and your beliefs." This gives you clear evidence of how my viewpoint is empirically proven. If Con is still dissatisfied, I will give more clear evidence and examples in the next round. That is why I affirm that Feminism is not needed anymore. Feminism has already solved the economic and political problems in America. I have proven that there is nothing to do when it comes to social and cultural equality. We have already created social rules that regulate what we say and our conscious thinking. We do not however control subconscious thinking. Thank you again to my opponent for accepting this debate.

  • CON

    So neither argument is nullified, both stand. ... [1]-...

    The world needs more feminism

    First, I would like to mention that I will rebut in a numerical fashion, then state my argument. 1. My opponent has seemingly equated the 5.2% star with inequality in the workplace. This absurd idea is backed up with yet another stat " that more women are enrolled in college then men. He says that this should at least translate to a 50"50 ratio within the Fortune 500 perimeter. First and foremost, let me point out that both of those stats are misleading. To begin with the enrollment figure, let us first establish that while more women may be in universities then men, men outnumber women about 2:1 in many business fields, such as management or finance, most of which translate to higher salaries. Women are most likely to go a medical route, or similar field [1]. These jobs often offer lower pay. Another high"paying field dominated by men is computer science, where representation stands at about 8"2 [2]. A final example is engineering, where men make up about 83% of the field (a wealthy one I might add), whereas it is absent from the top 10 majors for women. So it should be established that while women may be higher in numbers, that in no way means they should have equal earnings all around, mainly because on average, women take lower paying routes. Hopefully here we can begin to see that the fortune 500 conundrum is based on the path you choose, not sexism in the workplace. 2. Pros second contention was that Australia's women are considered unequal, due to domestic violence. He validates the contention by saying two women are killed per week due to domestic violence, compared to 0 men so far. For starters, the population of Australia is 23.13 million, so that equates to about 0.00000562% of the population, and for just women that figure becomes a mere 0.00001124%. So considering that the percentage of women affected by this is so finite, I find it ridiculous to claim women are "not considered equal" or that they cannot walk at night without fear. To conclude this statement, I also want to point out that while arguing the number of women affected could be good, saying 0 men have been killed is not a sign of sexism. This is a good thing.. So it should be considered good when 0 people have died due to a reason. 3. To address the "contradiction" in my argument, I will quickly point out that my statements had no correlation to one another. The first was simply describing the general statement that you cannot force someone to change their mind. It had little to do with sexism, only a general statement. Because while you can influence someone, you technically cannot force them to think differently. So neither argument is nullified, both stand. 4. This rebuttal is compelling, but with flaws. Pro points out that times change, obviously, and so do people. But vital relationships and natural human interaction should not be discarded as mere "social change". An ageless institution such as marriage is very, very important to how we live. It has been shown that married people live longer, happier lives [3], and are much less likely to go to prison or get in trouble in general. So I did not pick the 50's as some nostalgic golden age of romance to prove my point, but instead as a model of how to build relationships. If you believe all people should be able to live fruitless lives of immorality and short term relationships, then go for it. But just know that it is contradictive to human nature to be a "lone wolf". The 50's works as an example simply because of low out of wedlock marriages, marriages rates in general, and it being the closest period to our timeline before the sexual revolution. It has been shown that permanent relationships are a key factor to your happiness, and being sexually active at a young age can have consequences, such as STDs and high welfare dependency (for out of wedlock marriages) [4]. To wrap up this point, I want to argue that women of the 50s were not objects. They were fulfilling jobs equal to or greater to those of men- raising the next generation. It should be seen as 2 supports leaning on each other for balance, both fulfilling equal, but different jobs to survive. You have a false view of history where women were enslaved to men, toiling for the oppressive mans desires. In actuality, women were completing equal jobs to men, and it is only recently that feminists have decided that raising traditional families is bad. 5. Pro argues that because equality has gone up, so has divorce. In reference to my last paragraph, let me stress again how important marriage and relationships are to human life. It has nothing to do with any inequality or enslavement. It is something that has been found in every society, ever, and among animals similar to us. You seem to have this warped leftist view of marriage " that it is an idea made up by scheming, abusive men years ago, and must be eliminated or made useless. I cannot emphasize enough that marriage is not something that should be declining. Not to sound racist, but an example is the black family. Once equally employed and independent, now over 70% of African-American babies are born in out of wedlock relationships [5]. Welfare is at an all-time high, and black unemployment is much noticeably higher than white or Hispanic unemployment. The only solid answer achievable is the decline of the African american family. My opponents argument for economic growth being tied to feminism is a mere coincidence. The rates displayed in his source are very low in correlation, which shows that economic growth in South America is linked to the privatization of industries, the development of countries, and the less Socialist government style, which just so happens to be happening alongside feminism. No real or credible research actually suggests that feminism improves the economy. Let me remind you, since feminism has become dominant in North America, our economies have done anything but explode. My argument: to sum up my argument, I will again point to the rise in out of wedlock marriages, degration of women to objects, and the decline in marriage. Being born out of wedlock is not good for anyone. The parents are more likely to have been in prison, be poor, had multiple children with multiple partners, and suffer from depression. Children brought up in this situation, in turn, have a similar outlook ahead [6]. The degration of women is definitely a thing, and it is hard to deny. Can you not agree, especially at a young age, women are seen as objects and temporary bragging rights opposed to a person? We are not being taught to seek out long and prosperous relationships- instead told that quick sex and promiscuity is good. This encourages unstable marriages, which encourages unstable societies. Children cannot raise themselves, and if the 2 parent system is the best way, why not encourage that way? The decline of marriage is also linked to this. As marriage declines, so does the structure and order of society, and from that point it becomes a free fall to social prostitution and a life devoid of actual relationships. To the reader, if you got this far, I must ask why and how this type of orderless society could be supported, where equality by opportunity is not the norm, but instead equality by sameness takes root. And that, my friends, is the road to serfdom, otherwise known as socialism. [1]- http://www.bloomberg.com... [2]- http://www.randalolson.com... [3]- http://www.foryourmarriage.org... [4]- http://www.heritage.org... [5]- http://www.nationalreview.com... [6]- http://m.huffpost.com...