• CON

    Others however disagree with Solanski et al. on whether...

    The sun drives the global climate

    Others however disagree with Solanski et al. on whether sunspot activity correlates with temperature changes and on whether we are in the most active period for several thousand years. Muscheler et al. The link between the visually based sunspot numbers and solar-modulation parameter is neither straightforward nor yet understood, and also that solar modulation must have reached or exceeded today’s magnitudes three times during the past millennium... The reconstruction by Solanki et al. implies generally less solar forcing during the past millennium than in the second part of the twentieth century, whereas our reconstruction indicates that solar activity around AD 1150 and 1600 and in the late eighteenth century was probably comparable to the recent satellite-based observations. Both Muscheler and Solanski agree that "solar activity reconstructions tell us that only a minor fraction of the recent global warming can be explained by the variable Sun."[[Raimund Muscheler, Fortunat Joos, Simon A. Müller, Ian Snowball, 'How unusual is today’s solar activity?', Nature, 431, 1084–1087 (2004), http://www.cgd.ucar.edu/ccr/raimund/publications/Muscheler_et_al_Nature2005.pdf%5D%5D In other words even if the sun is having some effect the majority of climate change is still being caused by other factors of which the most likely is humans. Influence of the Sun does not seem to be so great on global warming trends. Surprisingly, even though average temperatures are still rising(the 2000s are on track to be nearly 0.2°C warmer than the 1990s. And that temperature jump is especially worrisome since the 1990s were only 0.14°C warmer than the 1980s[[http://data.giss.nasa.gov/gistemp/graphs/]].), solar activity is at a minimum, as reported by NASA in April 2009: NASA, April 1, 2009 2008 was a bear. There were no sunspots observed on 266 of the year's 366 days (73%). To find a year with more blank suns, you have to go all the way back to 1913, which had 311 spotless days: plot. Prompted by these numbers, some observers suggested that the solar cycle had hit bottom in 2008. Maybe not. Sunspot counts for 2009 have dropped even lower. As of March 31st, there were no sunspots on 78 of the year's 90 days (87%). It adds up to one inescapable conclusion: "We're experiencing a very deep solar minimum," says solar physicist Dean Pesnell of the Goddard Space Flight Center. "This is the quietest sun we've seen in almost a century," agrees sunspot expert David Hathaway of the Marshall Space Flight Center. [[http://science.nasa.gov/headlines/y2009/01apr_deepsolarminimum.htm]]

    • https://debatewise.org/debates/1757-man-made-climate-change-is-a-myth/
  • PRO

    Well my oppenet pretty much just had a argument that says...

    Climate Shift

    I thank my opponent for their response. "Well my oppenet pretty much just had a argument that says 'the scientist say its right, so its right.'" Actually what I'm saying "Well my oppenet pretty much just had a argument that says 'the scientist say its right, so its right.'" Actually what I'm saying is that scientists have proven sufficiently that it's real, so it is real. As for the rest of my opponents argument, it might be compelling to consider if it was confirmed by any evidence. Since my opponent cited no sources, we can only assume that this is only from his personal knowledge and expertise. A) my overwhelming bulk of sources overrides this. B) My opponent is not an environmental scientist, and even if he was, his opinion would be drowned by the 95% consensus Furthermore, my opponents points regarding the shift being "normal" should be cross referenced with my points regarding the scientific consensus that it is not "normal."

    • https://www.debate.org/debates/Climate-Shift/3/
  • PRO

    In the case of climate data, it is used as a basis for...

    Governments should require that funded climate data be posted

    My case for requiring the posting of publicly-funded data related to climate research boils down to three points: C1. It will allow review of the data for error by other scientists. C2. It will put peer pressure on the originating scientists to use better methodologies, such as software configuration control. C3. The public has a right to the products of work paid for by taxpayers. Con did not address any of my three points. Instead, he introduced two negative contentions. N1. Pro claimed that public controversy would continue regardless of whether data is disclosed or not. I never claimed that disclosure would end public controversy. I don't doubt that there are people among the public who will not alter their positions regardless of what is revealed. We should not care about that. Dissent is protected, even if it is not well-founded. However, until there is disclosure of what climate crisis advocates have done, there is no possibility of achieving a consensus on it, either by the public or among scientists. We may not ever get a public consensus, but there is a possibility of getting closer agreement among scientists. That will not happen until disclosure of research data and methods is accomplished. N2. Con goes on to claim, "I will show how unlimited public access to all, and especially preliminary data will only serve to further fire the flames of rhetoric that serve to obscure what may well be the most crucial issue of our time." So for example, if the official position is that the earth is the center of the universe, allowing access to data that shows the earth revolves around the sun would similarly, "fire the flames of rhetoric that serve to obscure what may well be the most crucial issue of our time." "Our time" in that case being the Sixteenth Century. It is precisely because a scientific issue is important that data ought to be disclosed, not suppressed. Con implied I wanted "preliminary data" disclosed. The resolution makes it clear that disclosure of source data and processing software is required only one month *after* publication. No preliminary data need ever be disclosed. It sometimes happens that a particular line of scientific inquiry proves ultimately fruitless, in which case no results are published and nothing ever need be disclosed as a consequence. When a result is published it is believed by the originator to be reliable. In the case of climate data, it is used as a basis for public policy decisions. If it supposed to be the basis for decision making, then it is appropriate that the means by which it was derived be disclosed at that time, or soon thereafter. Returning to my contentions, to which Pro offered no rebuttals: C1. The revealed CRU e-mails show an intent to further subvert the peer review process. Peer review is performed by qualified scientists. Climate crisis advocates have a well-established pattern of attempting to conceal data. The most notorious example is the bogus "hockey stick" in which global temperature were claimed to have been stable for a thousand years, until they rose exponentially in the past few decades. The hockey stick graph was included in the 2001 IPCC report as proof of CO2 caused global warming. The graph was doubted from the outset, because it did not show the Medieval Warm Period or the Little Ice Age, major periods of natural climate variation. With enormous effort, skeptical scientists finally managed to extract the source data from those behind the hockey stick construction and to show the specific errors in data processing that produced the spurious result. Organizations such as the Harvard-Smithsonian Institute for Astrophysics subsequently conducted a massive review of the scientific literature and firmly established the existence of the past climate variations. The UN removed the hockey stick from the 2007 IPCC report. The process of uncovering and correcting the errors took close to a decade, because the originating scientists would not divulge their data or detailed methodology. CRU was heavily involved in preparing the data for the bogus hockey stick. The present resolution would prevent such concealment and would enable skeptical scientists to conduct a proper review of important research. The errors in the derivation of the hockey stick might have been revealed before it was included in the 2001 IPCC report. Currently there is considerable controversy over recent temperature data that show sharp recent temperature rises. Allegations include claims that much of the recent proof of global warming is derived from the rings of three trees in Siberia, which is claimed to be given a high weight in multiple sets of climate data. Originators of the data are extremely reluctant to reveal their data and methods. The current resolution would help resolve the issue. Note that NASA has refused to comply with FIA requests made in 2007. The present resolution would have required contemporaneous disclosure. C2. The accepted professional practice for industry is to use a software configuration control system. This is applied both to program code and to data files. So if one wishes to recover the results at some specific time in the past, the configuration control system will automatically reconstruct the software and data sets for the desired day. CRU could not do that, so they could not comply with FIA requests even if they wanted to. To my knowledge, no one has claimed that being unable to reproduce past results is an acceptable practice in the scientific world. Forcing immediate direct disclosure solves the problem in one sense, because outsiders can then track the data. However, once scientists at CRU and elsewhere realize they will be forced to disclose, by far the easiest way to comply is to do what they should have always done -- implement a configuration control system. The US military systematically requires its contractors to implement such systems, and they sometimes require that the government be able to access the system remotely in real time. In other words, the military does not allow disorganized software development. While the resolution does not require such high standards of scientists, the resolution strongly encourages improved practices. The benefit is that the taxpayers get higher quality work for their money. C3. Why has Con failed to address the public's right to get access to what they have paid for? I have allowed that there are certain exemptions to the general rule of disclosure. Climate research does not fit any category of exemption. FIA requests have not been denied under any claim of exemption, the requests are just arbitrarily delayed or ignored. The resolution would put an end to concealment through delaying tactics. The CRU e-mails include internal requests to destroy past e-mail files so they could not be uncovered by FIA requests. CRU also admits to having destroyed original climate data, although they claim they did so to save storage space. Immediate disclosure puts an end to the destruction of scientific data to conceal it. Any one of my three contentions is sufficient to support the resolution. So far Con has addressed none of them. The resolution is affirmed.

  • PRO

    Both parties are (for international standards) right wing...

    CMV: There is no legal way to bring real change in the USA.

    I try not to have the "No true Scotsman" fallacy. The American government is full of *corruption-* sorry- **lobbyism** so votes don't change anything really. A good example is Obama-care which was the idea of free healthcare for everyone, but now isn't free, isn't universal and is tried to be abolished. Both parties are (for international standards) right wing and in their own information bubble, so that there isn't a discussion about things like minimum wage, healthcare, prisons, police etc. because everyone just starts yelling at ones and thinks they're right. The only option for a small group would be effective terrorism (We blow up 1 school every week, until *this* has changed or similar) and for a societal class to become aware of its power and destroy the government until there is not a fingernail of establishment left. ​ But that probably doesn't happen. Not because my conclusion is wrong, but because the establishment pushes nationalism to an unhealthy amount in the heads of every American.

    • https://www.reddit.com/r/changemyview/comments/l77o8v/cmv_there_is_no_legal_way_to_bring_real_change_in/
  • CON

    In debate we call that a Biased Sample Fallacy coupled...

    Governments should require that funded climate data be posted

    Pro: No Matter what the final outcome of this debate may be, I thank you for an extremely well-structured debate based upon one of today's most pressing questions. Thank you for the honor of allowing me to present the Con Position. Pro has stated he is having trouble figuring out what I was claiming with respect to the contentions. I understand his confusion since I meant to say I was refuting his claims of results that most likely would result. I apologize for the error and will be more careful in the future. Too bad the spell checker cannot flag those kind of errors. Pro contends that by posting on the internet the data supporting the publication of findings by a particular scientist or group, that the raw historical data be included in the posting along with the software used to analyze and plot that data, be included. On the surface this sounds good but here is the problem: If a group was to come across a small data set that refuted their other findings, but that that data was obtained in an unsatisfactory manner (such as some measurements being taken during an unusually warm period due to other than usual conditions, they would have to show the erroneous data and explain it omission in the overall results. Here is where the pundits come in: I can hear it now, "They just threw out data they didn't like!...This proves their entire theory is wrong and it is probably been cooked to get more tax money!" In debate we call that a Biased Sample Fallacy coupled with the Red Herring Fallacy. In debate, we have the opportunity to point these fallacies out and moving on, letting the judges decide. In real life, once the pundits latch on to something they think they can run with, in this case, not the "missing data" but the tax money. Scientists can counter the arguments all they want, but the anti's will still be the loudest. It is for this reason the raw data and the process of analysis (which may include the non-consideration of some data) being presented to the public would be counter-productive, thus confirming Con's position. I said I wouldn't get into the debate of global climate change per se so I will admit that the same scenario could be played out to the opposite side but the result would be the same...degenerating the vital investigation into this question into a debate of semantics rather than allowing the truth to emerge. Regardless of which side one is on, it is the truth should be the goal, not just an individual's (or a political party's or special interest group's)preset agenda. This whole question has become a political football, no longer a scientific investigation into a very important subject. Pro has, in fact, admitted that [quote]" There is no concern that unqualified people in the general public will critique climate research software. The general public cannot comprehend it."[end quote] therefore solidifying Con's position that there is no good reason to release the data he suggest to the public, but to restrict it's exposure to qualified scientists, other than to allow non-professionals, with no prestigious standing at risk, to cherry-pick data to foist upon the unsuspecting and admittedly gullible public as the absolute truth. This alone, should be enough to vote in favor of Con. Pro contends that the "hockey stick graph" contained a "major error" that caused it removal from the 2007 IPCC report. However, it was not the major error but the removal of the questionable data was portrayed by certain highly placed politicians who were admittedly opposed to any suggestion that global warming could be a real occurrence. http://en.wikipedia.org... The fact that the "Medieval Warming" and the "Little Ice Age" were left out due to the suspect nature of the data and the relatively slow temperature rise shown by even the suspected data over several hundreds of years compared to the comparatively rapid rise over less than one hundred years, did not discourage the critics of the issue one bit, with the pundits again exclaiming how the figures were deliberately falsified to simply satisfy some unknown benefactor holding the enormous purse strings of the federal budget. http://www.windows.ucar.edu... Pro has said that all the data should be produced "for all to see, without a bunch of nonsense obstacles." But then, since the public wouldn't comprehend it, it would still become, not a scientific question but a political football with each side pointing fingers and claiming the other guy was wrong and the "unqualified people in the general public" would be the ones left to make the decision of which side was "right." Pro's contentions have all been supported by questionable and debatable outcomes based on illegal and unethical "evidence" that has been sensationalized to create an adversarial atmosphere surrounding the entire field of research. It is not my contention that either side is correct - just that the public exposure of esoteric (at least among the general public) methods of analysis is counter-productive to determining the truth behind the science. Therefore, Con refutes the resolution as written.

    • https://www.debate.org/debates/Governments-should-require-that-funded-climate-data-be-posted/1/
  • CON

    5] Even Kevin Trenberth (from the Mann et al. ... [1]...

    Global climate models are accurate enough to be relied upon

    Thanks Pro for concise and focused argument. General limitations of Climate modelling In perfect scenario, we would have simple deterministic mathematical model to simulate deterministic phenomena on which we can run multiple experiments with controlled conditions in order to validate the model. While for example engineering simulations can comply with such scenario to some extent, complex phenomena in economic, social or climate sciences are another story. We don't have enough beforehand knowledge about every important climate feedback so we in fact estimate such feedback's with the model itself based on its output compared to measurements. But unless we know all other forcing that can influence output in similar way, we won't get good estimate of the parameter we look for. For example Koutsoyiannis[1] or Tennekes[2] (extending on Poper and Lorenz) challenge the notion that complex models could ever be reliable according to their nature. "Theories that are complex may become untestable, even if they happen to be true."[2] etc. If we look at QT's definition of GCM, it is clear that to fulfill their purpose, those models must have the structure of forcings and feedbacks right. We won't get reliable "scenario predictions", no matter how lucky we are in predicting aggregated mean temperature if the true causes are different then we thought. What is the reliability of current GCMs in scientists eyes? "We compare the output of various climate models to temperature and precipitation observations at 55 points around the globe... Besides confirming the findings of a previous assessment study that model projections at point scale are poor, results show that the spatially integrated projections are also poor."[1] "We examine tropospheric temperature trends of 67 runs from 22 ‘Climate of the 20th Century' model simulations and try to reconcile them with the best available updated observations (in the tropics during the satellite era). Model results and observed temperature trends are in disagreement in most of the tropical troposphere, being separated by more than twice the uncertainty of the model mean."[3] "These weaknesses combine to make GCM-based predictions too uncertain to be used as the bases for public policy responses related to future climate changes." [4] "So there has been a large activity to bring models and observations into agreement, strangely only by adjusting the measurements instead of adjusting the models. "[5] Even Kevin Trenberth (from the Mann et al. group) now acknowledges many of the GCM's troubles in his paper "More knowledge, less certainty"[6] publicly. "The scientific literature is filled with studies documenting the inability of even the most advanced GCMs to accurately model radiation, clouds, and precipitation."[7] For those interested, NIPCC report [7] and their topical updates [8] provide comprehensive information about studies dealing with GCM reliability. Refutation As you put it, Hansen's predictions look totally perfect and within 100th of degree of Celsius. Lets examine the claim. "Dr. Jim's 1988 projections weren't looking so good, so he dropped an apple in the middle of his oranges. The red line is land only temperatures, but his projections were for global temperatures."[9] Let us also compare it with satellite [10] and other [11] data. Now suppose I made highly oscillating prediction. At some points in time, my prediction would be always spot on as it would cross the real data. Look back at the figures. Where is this precision from 2006 until now, or in early nineties? Also note that curve C assumes "emissions drastically reduced" in 1990 [10,11]. I therefore call this conduct a fallacy of cherry-picking. On top of that, Hansen is known for not so transparent temperature data manipulation.[12,13] Dessler's assumptions are refuted by Spencer's satellite observations [14], supporting rather Lindzen's hypothesis:"Our measured sensitivity of total (SW + LW) cloud radiative forcing to tropospheric temperature is -6.1 W *m^-2 K^-1... This decrease in ice cloud coverage is nominally supportive of Lindzen's 'infrared iris' hypothesis." "This is exactly opposite of the way all climate models behave," as Spencer put it in his own words in [15]. (technical note: Don't take the whole video as extension of my argument. Its used only as source of the quote in 6:19 and for information purpose as I acknowledge I must make my argument myself on this page within its limitations.) Now lets see the warming troposphere, because it was predicted it would be significantly warmed by CO2 forcing. See figures 3.4.1 and 3.4.2 for PCM model prediction and 3.4.3 for radiosondes. Updated study [17], taking in account errors stated by Pro, supports overall warming trend in troposphere of +0.052 ± 0.07 K per decade (while RSS temperature is somewhat higher then other methods, but much less then models). That is in good agreement what the figure 3.4.3, but in complete disagreement with figure 3.4.2 (also note the scales). The problem is not whether the troposphere warmed, but how much it warmed (1.2 °C at hotspot vs 0-0.3°C) and how different layers warmed relative to each other. The model predicted much stronger warming in troposphere then on surface, but that is not true. It means that model is wrong about GHG forcing or feedbacks in troposphere. Conclusion Models may be useful in furthering our knowledge of the problem, mostly by showing us what our assumptions really mean. If we are humble enough and learn from comparing our assumptions to measurements, we can learn from our mistakes. But the climate models fail if used as defined by Pro. [1] http://www.tandfonline.com... [2] http://ff.org... [3] http://www.pas.rochester.edu... [4] http://www.ncpa.org... [5] http://hockeyschtick.blogspot.com... [6] http://www.nature.com... [7] http://www.nipccreport.org... [8] http://www.nipccreport.org... [9] http://sppiblog.org... [10] http://www.climate-skeptic.com... [11] http://rankexploits.com... [12] http://stevengoddard.wordpress.com... [13] http://www.omsj.org... [14] http://www.drroyspencer.com... [15] Video: "Why the IPCC Models...." http://www.youtube.com... [16] http://www.nipccreport.org..., pages 106-108 [17] https://www.cfa.harvard.edu...

  • PRO

    Speculation with BTC (asides from puts) thus is directly...

    CMV: All those climate-saving billionaires are huge hypocrites now investing in bitcoin!

    Bitcoin uses as much power as Norway mainly produced from dirty coal plants in third world countries. https://www.bbc.com/news/technology-56012952 (Edit:the article says it increased already to Argentinian size) Elon spending $100 mio price for carbon capturing while investing $1,5B in bitcoin at the same time without any real need. World climate is going down and we waste ton of energy just for speculation? This is soo hypocrite. Why aren't the billionaires not criticized more? Why isn't there a co2 tax on bitcoin? Why are those billionaires being hailed in Reddit while ruining all our futures? I don't get it, how can one produce electric cars, solar roofs, traffic reduction technologies, grant prices for climate technology and at the same time invest a multiply into the most stupid waste of energy one could possibly imagine? The only reason TSLA is doing this is for speculation purposes... One bitcoin transaction generates as much CO2 as a Tesla driving 5000 miles. Let alone an increased BTC price propelles mining activity. Speculation with BTC (asides from puts) thus is directly harming the climate as it expects rising courses and this drives mining.Tesla should sell their co2 certificates to themselves to cover for the bitcoin emissions? Are those billionaires not being honest to us and all they care is becoming richer ( well who doesn't) by polluting the ?. This invest in bitcoin will jeopardize all C02 emissions savings Tesla has made during it's entire existence in no time ( didn't do the math). One could wonder why this is even allowed, earning money from C02 emissions certificates while investing the same money into a C02 emissions network with no other real usage aside from wasting energy and becoming richer. Can anybody explain why Elon is still everybody's hero while being climate Sauron? I don't get it, we should tell him that this is wrong and he needs to stop. Elon, please be again the self made billionaire by making the world a better place! You are ruining all your reputation and the world needs green role models so badly!

  • PRO

    The cost of cutting back fossil fuel use and developing...

    Acting to 'mitigate' climate change will cost a fortune.

    The cost of cutting back fossil fuel use and developing alternatives will be vast. The money is much better spent on preventing hunger and disease in the third world.

  • CON

    Either we act or we don't act, and then either GW happens...

    Acting to 'mitigate' climate change will cost a fortune.

    Action needn't cost a fortune, using market forces and effective regulation carbon emissions can be reduced at minimal cost. Anyway the people that are causing it can easily afford it... Out of the four possible eventualities, acting now is the best. Either we act or we don't act, and then either GW happens or not. If we do not act, and global warming happens, the enitre world economy would completely collapse, and these third world communities would be wiped out in an instant.

  • PRO

    Let me know when you are ready to start debating. ... It...

    Human caused climate change is total nonsense

    Let me know when you are ready to start debating. It looks like your still not ready.