• PRO

    But fighting for equal rights is actually second wave...

    Third Wave Feminism Isn't Needed

    I agree that feminism is needed in some countries. But fighting for equal rights is actually second wave feminism, and it is very much needed in third world african and asian countries. Third wave feminism in the United States if you do any research has to do with fat acceptance, abortion (which is already legal) and extending the gender spectrum, and no feminists I have met or researched are devoted to helping women in Mauritania or other such countries. Fat acceptance and body positivity are two different things. Body positivity is when a person is proud of their bodies, and dont want to change regardless of the health risks obesity can cause. Fat acceptance is when obese people complain about how they arent welcome into society and teach children being fat is a good thing. Being fat is not a good thing. It's unhealthy. My stance on abortion is that people should have the choice. If you dont want to get an abortion, dont get one. If you do, get one. I really couldnt care less. However, abortion is already legalized, and any further protests are unneccesary. There are two genders. Male and Female. There are rare exceptions of which people are born in the wrong body and transition to the other gender, or are born with neither, or male and female genitals. These again are RARE exceptions. There is no such thing as any other gender. Any other gender is simply a way of making yourself feel special, and get the attention you so desperately crave.

  • PRO

    Here is an analogy if a Father raises two Sons and claims...

    Feminism more like sexism or more like (Female supremacy).

    Feminism- Full Definition of FEMINISM 1: organized activity on behalf of women's rights and interests http://www.merriam-webster.com... feminism [fem-uh-niz-uh m] Spell Syllables Word Origin noun 1.the doctrine advocating social, political, and all other rights of women equal to those of men. 2:(sometimes initial capital letter) an organized movement for the attainment of such rights for women. http://dictionary.reference.com... Feminism is in itself on definition is sexist regardless if you are radical or regular feminist. I cannot word this any better than The Amazing Atheist or Tj Kirk "Feminism is the idea that we can make both sexes equal by focusing solely on the issues of one of them" - TheAmazingAtheist. Here is an analogy if a Father raises two Sons and claims to love them both equally wishes to treat them equally. Son A has (possibly) has more struggles in his life. Son B seems (possibly) to have equal problems as like Son A has. But the Father pursues to fix the problems of only Son A. If you don't get this analogy let me fill you in: the Father is society or in this case is a feminist with feminism ideologies, Son A are woman and Son B are men. If you think this analogy is reasonable just by itself (w/o comparing it to feminism) can a rational person claim this to be "equality" between the two sons? What I am basically conveying is that feminism only addresses the problems of females' oppression and won't even acknowledge or even as ignorantly deny the male issues. This is how feminism by its very nature is sexist. If you are a feminist Con and you truly believe in equality and both gender's problems should be addressed equally I very much urge you to call yourself a Humanist or rather an Egalitarian. Egalitarian: asserting, resulting from, or characterized by belief in the equality of all people, especially in political, economic, or social life. http://dictionary.reference.com... Humanist: a person having a strong interest in or concern for human welfare, values, and dignity. http://dictionary.reference.com... Another reason feminism is sexist because it actually undermines women. Modern feminism creates the delusion that women are oppressed constantly and are under the control of men. This idea is called the patriarchy which is very faulty in the Western world (and if you Con personally believe the patriarchy exists in the western world like for example the USA I can explain to you easily why it doesn't) , but lets say the patriarchy is real. If a woman honestly believes in the western world that a group of men or all men have actually controlled every one of her actions. Basically feminism is saying women are just brainless sheep to men , which is ridiculous and completely hates on women's intelligence. Now I shall explain to Con how feminism takes another leap SOMETIMES further to female supremacy.For the most part I am talking about radical feminism basically what it has become today. Radical feminist make ridiculous claims or arguments like: Women are naturally better parents so therefore have more rights than man to raising a child, Men accused of rape should be castrated, if a man sleeps with a prostitute that man is a rape supporter, if a man goes to strip club is demeaning women, and if a person is a anti-abortionist that person is sexist. Setting aside this debate I am fully for equality ,but I am not willing to wrongly label what I am, I love women. for shits and giggles though. I have taken several feminist quizzes and here some of my results: http://gyazo.com... http://gyazo.com... http://gyazo.com... And of course they suck because I disagree with feminism and with equality between the genders.......

  • PRO

    You must stick to Western Feminism, I have no problem...

    New Western Feminism is pointless and oppresive.

    My position is the position implied by the title. I'd like a rational discussion. You must stick to Western You must stick to Western Feminism, I have no problem with it where the rights of women are still obscured. Good luck.

  • PRO

    The notion of only representing one sexes issues to...

    Feminism is wrong

    The notion of only representing one sexes issues to create equality is ludicrous.Masculism has pretty much died but the growth of men civil rights groups such as MGTOW (Men Going Their Own Way) have increased.These civil rights groups have pretty much just turned into finger-pointers mostly at the opposite civil rights activists.I agree with an interesting point that you brought up about the sexes mimicking the other sex.I think its sad when society thinks its great that a man would rather be a stay at home parent and the mother working. I'm not saying there should be gender roles frankly that is ridiculous. These activists need to stop viewing each other as enemies.Both civil rights claim they are fighting for the same thing right?So why are they bashing each other?We need equalism not feminism nor masculism.It is almost a shame that this debate has instead turned into a discussion board.But I enjoyed it and thank you.

  • PRO

    Yes because I want to tell you that men are much more...

    Feminism is harmful to society

    Yes because I want to tell you that men are much more likely to face discrimination than women 1. They represent most of homeless population 2. They are more likely to commit suicide 3. They have fight and die for war 4.they are over represented in dangerous work occupations 5. They had little to no protection against domestic violence 6. They get longer prison sentence And what did feminism do ? Nothing. MEN Do Not Benefit anything from them.

  • PRO

    By making man as the sole perception of life, you are...

    First World Feminism in the USA

    Conduct I understand that Con is source bombing, but please note that his intention were just to give me something to go on. Waive any source bombing penalties that you might think of. Although, It is also important to note that I am under NO OBLIGATION to respond and refute every single 'Personal MRA Life Experience' that he referenced to, since this was essentially a source bomb. I'm doing this just to spark the last round, since he has given me nothing to go on at this point. That said, let's continue arguing, I'm bored with technicalities. Video: MGTOW GENERATION - Young Men Are Giving Up On Women The video is filled with unappealing rhetoric, intended to exemplify suffering from a 'Man's perspective'. It is a complete reversal of liberal feminism, which uses the same "Please lift me in terms of status" argument. The video purposely said that it's intention was to refute radical feminism, however that is untrue. Radical Feminism is a minority which falls under a movement intended to abolish the social status of gender, not put it on a pedestal wheel. Moreover, It falls under what Simone have called the divide between one from the other(1). By making man as the sole perception of life, you are essentially dividing yourself from other groups. I understand the appeal of Non-conformity, but to be utterly selfish and self promote one's gender without any consideration of other social groups is absurd. Not only does it promote misinformation, but it promotes an apathetic, cynical environment which is highly destructive to societal cohesion. Individuals have an obligation to promote social cohesion, not denounce it by digging one's self into a rabbit hole and expect sympathy from the general public. 2nd Video: Girl DESTROYS feminism in 3 minutes (Lauren Southern) (Twitter: @PLAYBOYSTRESS) This is filled with an enormous amount of emotional appeal that is completely irrational. The video also moves and talks like a conspiracy UFO theorist, filled with adequate amount of emotional suspense intended to arouse uninformed audience. She makes the point about having received "supposed assaults" from liberal feminists and blabs on for a significant amount of time to make the audience appeal more towards her view. The only valid point she makes is Suicide rates, which is higher among men than it is among women. It does not, indicate the source of the suicide, however hard she tries to blame it on liberal feminism. The rest are a cluster disproportion of arguments. First of all, Women are raped more than men. they are more objectified than men. It is an intrinsic drive of men to have sex whenever he walks and moves along the earth's atmosphere. Objectification of men doesn't necessarily end in a negative light, as I'm sure they very much prefer to be objectified. Stroking men's ego is the easiest way to win his heart, especially when it comes to the the amount of 'cleavage' they possess, especially down there, right when they're measuring how long it is while contemplating what to do when the time comes. I am in under no position to argue beyond a personal viewpoint, since what she's essentially doing, is the EXACT same thing, by riling one's personal experience and expect it to be socially valid and representative. If personal experiences are valid, then I can use mine to counter hers. 3rd Video:Feminism vs. Truth Again with the rhetoric. This is the problem with youtube sources, especially if one doesn't have proper information over the issue. It does not help, whatsoever to reassert and restate how you're smarter than professors in women's studies, nor does it help to reassert a blanket and useless statement such as "Women are doing better than men in most cases". She criticized the wage gap as being non-existent, when most feminist have clarified that the wage issue isn't a sweeping statement that applies everywhere, but rather, it applies on an individual case. Domestic chores, sleep deprivation and nurturing schedules all contribute whether or not a certain family has a wage gap. This has been proven time and time again by Radical Feminist Philosophers. In conclusion, the arguments she provided are grossly misinformed and tends to rely too much on generalizing social issues. Sociological studies, require in-depth measurements to prove themselves as valid since there's simply no way to quantify social norms. There is no way Con can prove this video as valid argument, since the issue is non-existent in the first place. 4th Video:PROFESSIONAL VICTIM TACTICS (Guest video by Vernaculis) And how does real life examples, such as social status issues of manspreading(or shebagging) address inequality? How does complimenting one party and completely dividing the other as 'infamously ignorant' helps? The video clearly perpetuates everything that is wrong with society, simply being the obvious lack of social cohesion and the lack of tolerance. Disproving a sensitive issue requires one to have valid arguments, not backtrack themselves to an emotional appeal. Conclusion I thank Con for presenting me with those videos. It informed me on what appeals to the popular audience and what triggers them, which I'm usually unaware of in most cases. Good luck and I trust my opponent to have a civil response. Thank you again for this debate.

  • CON

    In other words, men will always be attracted to women...

    Feminism is for equal rights for all genders not just women.

    Thank you, VoiceofEquality; wording things like this just takes practise :) I will use this last round to summarise the contentions and respond to what my opponent wrote. Negative Case Premise: The myth of gender equality My opponent has entirely ignored this, despite it being very relevant to the arguments being made in other areas. The fact is that women and men are different; they can never be equal in a real sense, hence attempts for gender equality are often sexist and ignore the real biological states of both or one of the sexes. A1: Unequal rights in STEM fields Completely dropped. This argument shows clear evidence of feminism being sexist against men. A2: Pay Gap Theory is inherently sexist against men Completely dropped. Again, this argument shows clear evidence of feminism being sexist against men. A3: Feminists show unbridled hatred for men Dropped, in the complete sense. I quoted half-a-dozen feminists espousing hatred for men; this is a clear example of feminists wanting nothing to do with equal rights for all genders, ESPECIALY none for men. Counter-arguments The faulty definition of feminism: equality of the sexes Since my opponent did not respond to this, it appears that we agree this definition should not be used. Eliminating stereotypes because we do not understand human psychology Short-hair: The objections of short-hair and make-up seem to be roughly the same, so I will address them at once. Make-up: The fact is, as explained next to this title in my last round, that men are attracted to women with clear skin more so than women with less-than-clear skin. Again, my opponent’s feminist argument fails to realise that societal recognition cannot change the biological imperatives. In other words, men will always be attracted to women with clear skin, regardless of what society or any external influence says. My opponent then continues to make the ridiculous assertion that women do not have to wear make-up to impress men. Well, as shown in my studies, which reference biological imperatives, yes, women do need to do that. If she wants to be less attractive, then by all means she does not have to wear make-up. But to say that she can be as attractive without at least modest make-up is to completely ignore the science of evolutionary psychology. As I underlined from my research: mechanisms involving evolutionary psychology are highly resistant to cultural modification, AND in regards to long-hair, long-hair is attractive across ALL cultures, despite the wild differences in cultures. Society cannot change evolutionary psychology by simply telling people to stop doing things, much like heart will not stop beating simply by wishing it would. Finally, my opponent runs a mitigation argument against my surveys. Whilst my surveys are not the absolute ideal in terms of research, they are far better than the zero research my opponent has given to support his/her theory that it is purely society dictating these trends (men liking long-hair and unblemished faces on women). In conjunction with the other references to evolutionary psychologists concluding upon research done in field, there is not simply my surveys that I rely upon to make my argument, too. Evidence for stereotypes: My opponent simply cites a few sources without explaining as to why they are relevant to this debate. Voters should not be required to read through sources in order to have an educated guess as to what the debater intended as argument. The debate happens on DDO, so everything should be explained on DDO, elsewise I could reference 250 sources and say “read these to understand why I have won”. Via reductio ad absurdum, I shown why my opponent’s conduct with source referencing is illogical [1]. But even if you were to take whatever argument made with these sources, my contention was never that stereotypes do not exist, rather that in the context of feminism, feminism often gets the fact wrong in blaming things on stereotypes, rather than evolutionary psychology. For example, women with short-hair are not stigmatised because of the patriarchy, rather because men find women more attractive with long-hair. My opponent’s list of bare assertions My opponent has decided to defend some of the bare assertions made last round. I will address those. Feminism changed the definition of rape: My opponent has provided evidence to show that the definition of rape has indeed changed. However, there is no link to this being a feminist initiative. Control+f the FBI document for “feminism” or something that is directly related to feminism, and you will see that whilst a change in terms did occur, there is simply no link to feminism. Employed fathers now entitled to at least two weeks’ paternity leave on the birth of their child: Again, whilst this did indeed occur, there is simply no link to feminism. Just because there are equal rights, it does not necessarily mean that feminism has pushed for this, and we certainly cannot say if there is no reference or mention of feminism. Conclusion: Why you should vote for me My opponent completely drops every aspect of my negative case. Since my arguments there clearly show that feminism is not about equal rights for the genders, and is rather about hatred or unequal rights for men, my opponent loses due to all of these contentions. In terms of negation from my end, I provided numerous scholarly work to show that it is evolutionary psychology largely at play, in regards to women with make-up and long-hair, not patriarchy or society being mean to women. My opponent could only run a mitigation argument against my surveys, dropping the rest of my scholarly work on this point. My opponent also tried to link some of his/her bare assertions to ways in which feminism has helped both men and women, but he/she failed to link this feminism. Thank you, VoiceofEquality, for this debate. Thank you, Mr/Ms reader for reading our debate =) Reference: [1] http://rationalwiki.org...

  • CON

    It wouldn't be necessary if people stop belittling the...

    feminism NEEDS to be stopped

    The feminism is necessary, because the woman has always been despised by the society. It wouldn't be necessary if people stop belittling the figure of the woman, but this never happened, and It will never happened with closed mindsets. That's why you need one, two, three waves, it doesn't matter, It matters the message that woman isn't an object of the world. When we stop being treated as inferior people... we do not stop fighting, because It's many years treating us like this. And we want our place. The vocabulary, the culture, the history, the works... in many areas the woman is denigrated, in the XXI century, and that is rather worrying.

  • CON

    I have heard a lot about it being about equality, and...

    Modern Feminism

    Modern Feminism in the united states has no place. I have heard a lot about it being about equality, and that women are treated less than men in society, they act and make the situation appear as if they were an African American in the late 1800's. What i would like to point out is that there are people in other countries, such as Afghanistan, or china, where women legitimately are objectified and they are oppressed, here in the United States they have many rights, we also have had a women's suffrage movement where they were granted rights they did not previously have. In the current day they act as if we are still in that day and age, when women get raped it's because someone who has serious mental issues was allowed that opportunity, some are under the influence of illicit drugs and or they're potentially more uncontrollable counterpart, alcohol. Not many men rape or even have thoughts of rape, nor any desire to do so. A simply hello or a casual comment that is meant in a flirtatious or even a courteous way does not signify or blow a whistle (that's ironic) signalling rape. Thinking in that way is a very paranoid and self destructive way to think. "Rape culture" is not a real thing and thinking so is downright delusional and signifies a very mislead mind.

    • https://www.debate.org/debates/Modern-Feminism/3/
  • PRO

    1: Feminism: “the belief that men and women should have...

    On balance modern Feminism is beneficial to the modern United States.

    Resolve:On balance modern Feminism is beneficial to the modern United States. 1: Feminism: “the belief that men and women should have equal rights and opportunities”(1) 2: Benificial: "producing good or helpful results or effects : producing benefits."(2) 4 Rounds, 10,000 Characters, 72 hours Round one: acceptance Round two: opening arguments Round three: Rebuttals Round four: Final Rebuttals and closing Statements (no new arguments) Thank you Mister_Man for agreeing to this debate. Good luck to you! Burden of proof on pro. (me) (1)http://www.merriam-webster.com... (2)http://www.merriam-webster.com...