Pro vs. con view
Topic space viewIs feminism needed in today's society
In today's modern society, feminism is not needed. There is no factual evidence that women have it harder than men. There may be minor minor bits that could be seen as unfair but that goes both ways for men and women. You can't get society perfect down to the minute, it's just not possible and it requires too much time.
Feminism is irrelevant, unjust and flawed. It should be stopped.
Thanks to feminism not dying in the 1980s, the following events were made possible in the 1990s and 2000s. -1991: the U.S. Senate voted to open combat positions for women aviators. -1992: four more women were elected into the U.S. Senate. -1994: the Gender Equity in Education Act was passed, banning gender stereotyping and discrimination in the classroom. -1994: marital rape was banned in the UK. -1994: the Violence Against Women Act was passed in the U.S. -2007: the Forced Marriage (Civil Protection) Act was passed in the UK. -2013: the first ever woman to bring a gender discrimination lawsuit in China won her case and received an official apology from the discriminating party. Source: http://en.m.wikipedia.org... Feminism still has a place because not all men respect women equally, and vice versa. However, both men and women are on the right track to gender equality. Feminism is not irrelevant or unjust; a movement for equal gender rights is neither of those things. Misandry and misogyny will not go down without a fight, and Source: http://en.m.wikipedia.org... Feminism still has a place because not all men respect women equally, and vice versa. However, both men and women are on the right track to gender equality. Feminism is not irrelevant or unjust; a movement for equal gender rights is neither of those things. Misandry and misogyny will not go down without a fight, and feminism is part of that battle.
Feminism: Equality of the Sexes
I accept. I would like to add that I am not in any way anti-feminist and am not calling for the abolishment of the movement (as I definitely agree, support, and follow certain aspects of the ideology) but there are flaws in feminism, modern and historical, that I would like to bring to light, particularly the lack of emphasis on race, ethnicity, and economic class.
Feminism is and has achieved equality. 3rd wave feminism is oppressive.
To start with, your definition of Feminism is incorrect which makes me wonder who I am debating with. Feminism is; "the advocacy of women's rights on the ground of the equality of the sexes." There is no definition for Feminism outside of the scope of, directly relating to gaining rights for woman or to gain grounds for woman in some regard. Starting off your debate with thats total nonsense is not an argument. In fact my argument makes sense, it just does not seem to make sense to you personally.. why? I will further analyze your understanding of my argument, trying, as I might not to get sucked in to your satellite arguments and propositions - such as Christianity, which bears no relevance to a group fighting for more rights as apposed to a group that has dominated humanity for over 2000 years. You suppose that third wave feminism is more inclined to challenge gender norms, reproductive rights, celebrating sexuality as a means of female empowerment. language as in "he" (are you kidding me?) and so on. That is your definition of Third Wave Feminism - great so that draws us back to the argument I already put to you which is why is it necessary in a world where feminism has reached its goals in equality in Western civilized worlds? Moving forward; "some TWFs are oppressive - the extreme types", to which you refer me once again to religion, and denounce the prospect of religions being judged based on extremist activities... however, if you take a quick glance around the world you can see that the Catholic Church has been severely discredited due to sexual abuse within the church, and Muslims are pretty much seen as terrorists due to the actions of "a few extremists". But I wont let that hurt your argument I will continue on and maybe I will get some facts out of this debate. However, you are looking for references to why I believe the modern movement of Feminists is more about control and manipulation rather than about progress towards equality. 1) Anita Sarkeesian - manipulated 150,000 from the public in order to start a video campaign against the gaming industry - she received the money and is yet to follow through- however, deems it necessary to condemn the gaming industry for following a simple supply and demand model for their business. 2) Further to this, the wage gap of woman receiving 77% to a mans dollar is based on a fallacy, by using ratios and the average wage of females compared to the average wage of males, without servicing any further research into, yet it is one of the main focuses. "In 2013, women made 22% less than men in almost every occupation (source: http://www.iwpr.org...... )." This is a well spelled out version of how the "Wage Gap" truly exists without emotional bullying of the facts. http://www.buzzfeed.com... 3) Further more, any argument put forward that asks for facts within feminism is immediately hostile, in almost every public interaction. 4) The introduction of the professional victim, makes it impossible for men to even say anything at all without being accused of being hushed by a male who is blinded by his own sexist perception of the world. Saying that woman can NEVER be oppressive because they are oppressed..?! http://www.dailymail.co.uk... This is separate to the debate, it is just my opinion - I believe the concept of gender neutrality is based on the idea that some men are insensitive to woman, and the concept of the boys club makes woman feel rejected. This is because boys aren't willing to be more sensitive (name calling, bullying, being violent etc). In my honest opinion, gender neutrality should be named people who take pleasure in being sensitive and people who take pleasure in being positive. Because I know a lot of woman who are tough and more masculine than a lot of the men who believe in gender neutrality. Its psychological, some people like to talk about how they feel, like feminists and some people don't care about feelings because they just want to enjoy the moment - people who enjoy the moment will pick on people who are busy reflecting on how they feel - because in the moment people see that behavior as totally selfish, so they will call them sissy's or girls or gay etc... which is inappropriate, however it is the only description that has been made available to them over the last few millenniums. If you're out riding dirt bikes and have to stop because someone feels something, its pretty damn boring. Its generally why insensitive people stay away from sensitive people. Moving forward, the idea of gender neutrality, totally strips away any man liking that he is a man/tough. I would love to know why this is OK, and I would love to know why saying "he" or "she" is offensive... I am starting to believe that some TWFs really don't like being woman because womenagainstfeminism.tumblr.com/ shows a lot of woman that love being woman and men being men. You say I have only heard these things from feminists, because they are the ones who bring it up, and ignoring it wont make it go away. So, should I be looking for Bigfoot, the lauchness monster and aliens? Because conspiracy guys brought that to my attention? Really is that the argument you want to go with? Without proof that stands up, we are supposed to just take it, because TWFs are upset over something we have seen no evidence of? There has not been any real privilege for men over woman since the development of feminism and that is what I am debating. So far I have seen no proof of these privileges in this debate, furthermore legislation wont allow ANY oppression without 50,000 lawyers jumping for gold. Men showing skin and not being stigmatized? Have you seen all the celebrities who are nude lately? I don't think many men wanted to stop that behavior, I think they generally loved.. and love naked woman, for 1 reason. Guys pick on chicks the a same as they do with other men, if you cant handle it "leave the group". I for one give girls I know a hard time for sleeping around, but I do the same with guys - its called ribbing, and its a choice about who you associate with. The double standard I think is about sensitivity, and guys have less to be sensitive about and I think that is where TWF is coming from, making men feel and empathize with sensitivity. But when men hang around men they will try to find a common ground to be friends like who they had sex with, who they want to have sex with, who they beat at (whatever). It takes a specific type of person to discuss what toys children should play with to make them "feel" a certain way. "Women have asked to be able to do what they want before. And men have stopped them doing it." I would like to see evidence of this, and why it took thousands of years for woman to finally push it over the line in 1960s, the pill was invented thats why, not having kids changed the dynamic and allowed woman to be free of having kids and to pursue further ambitions.... male ambitions and the destruction of male influence. Using "facts from the last 40 years wasn't really what I was looking for when I said "did they ask before?" And "if men were so bad to woman, why would we even pass a bill to allow woman to do what they finally asked to be able to do?" I wasn't talking only about voting, I was speaking of an overall allowance for womans rights. But I have to ask, what is it that TWFs believe woman haven't gotten? Is it because they have rights now and now, TWF's just think they should be given everything and by everything I mean the world? Egalitarianism is not feminism, they are not the same things. But this still doesn't explain why feminists still exist, and why everyone isn't fighting for equal opportunity
Feminism is Wrong
As my rebuttal, I stated that women make way less than men. You say that it isn't the case. You aren't looking at the facts right, then. That was a comparison. When we were debating in the comments as well, you stated that women are paid more. No they aren't in most cases, and when they are being paid more, it's less than a $0.10 difference!!! No, you say I may not be correct, but in the end I AM stating facts. I'm not being taken seriously because I'm young, and I understand that. But, I can make a stand point to be correct in the end. My mother and father went into the same work force, took the exact job. They compared checks at the end of every two weeks and my mother always made less. "Women choose lower paying and more comfortable jobs while men do more dangerous and higher paying jobs". No, not all women do. Some women, such as my aunt, work at places such as Olin Brass Company ( where I'm from). So this just knocks that rebuttal out the ball park. Women ARE just as capable as men. Women aren't as strong, but they are wise, just as men, and can do things. "There are some dummies who do but that is rare and our society as a whole looks at them like they are fools" Well where I was from, it was common. I seen this all the time. It was just something that looked normal in my city. This, for that reason caused us to leave the city. We didn't ever go back there, and haven't ever went back to this day. "Women tend to be teachers while men go off and risk their lives in an oil rig." Well, in this case you're stating that its almost unethical to find a woman working in an oil rig, because they would rather be teachers. Well, that's basically a sexist statement in itself. "I think we have a feminist paradox where feminism is saying women should have less rights!" You are correct, in a stand point. But, you are also wrong. Because, what I am fighting for in feminism, and sexism is that everyone can do everything, and not be judged for it. It's something that I feel I stand for. You have very valid points, but I'm still going to believe in that everyone needs to be equal. Women, African American, Caucasian American ! We all are missing our equality.
Feminism is beneficial to Western society.
Prologue Unfortunately, Pro has not been able to post her opening argument. However, I will not refrain from arguing this round. I am not against the advocacy of equality; if anything, refer to me as an egalitarian. However, the reasons why I am personally against feminism will appear in this argument. This will mainly consist of how the feminist campaign produce, and advocate false arguments to further their privileges. For this reason, it is detrimental to society. Arguments Wage Gap A very popular argument among feminists is the wage gap. This is however, not argued correctly. The argument normally assumes the following form: P1: There is a gap from the average, overall earnings between males and females P2: This is due to gender discrimination in the workplace C: The wage gap is caused by gender discrimination in the workplace This may appear valid, but it is impossible for feminists to deem premise two with decent veracity... To keep this argument short, I will post a popular article posted by a feminist, and I invite Pro to do the same. Nevertheless, all arguments that relate to the aforementioned syllogism, boil down to the same falsity; no empirical evidence to assert the cogency of premise two. This source was produced by Lisa M. Maatz, who is arguing the validity of this syllogism. As a defense of premise one she states: "For the last decade, median earnings for women working full time, year-round have been just 77% of men’s earnings" (1) Despite this being a bare assertion, I will help her out with premise one: " 2010 the median income of FTYR workers was $42,800 for men, compared to $34,700 for women. The female-to-male earnings ratio was 0.81" (2) So, premise one is now valid. Alright, now for the entire argument to be sound, premise two must be valid as well. As a defense of premise two, she states: well... Nothing. Well, she did mention one case that happened in 2003. However, this commits the anecdotal fallacy; just because one woman experienced unequal pay, does not verify that the entire wage gap is due to discrimination. Since premise two, lacks validity, the argument itself is not sound. I affirm that this is the case for all of the arguments that assume the syllogism. I invite my adversary to post as many sources she likes to corroborate premise two. All of the sources appear to commit an unwarranted assumption fallacy. That being said, I will now provide sufficient evidence to debunk the wage gap entirely: This source produced by CONSAD Research Corporation, deduces that the wage gap is in fact due to: "Agreater percentage of women than men tend towork part-time. Part-time work tends topay less than full-timework" "Agreater percentage of women than men tend toleave the labor force for child birth, childcare and elder care. Some of the wage gap isexplained by the percentage of womenwhowere not in the labor force during previousyears, the age of women, and the number ofchildren in the home. " "Women, especially working mothers, tend tovalue “family friendly” workplace policiesmore than men. Someof the wage gap is explained by industry and occupation, particularly,the percentage of women who workin the industry and occupation." (3) And this doesn't even mention all variables. That source is also corroborated by (4)(5)(6)(7) This pertains to the resolution, since it is unreasonable just to look at the definition and deduce that "equality is good, and since feminism wants equality, then feminism ought to be good". It's like looking at what the IRA sought for ( a united Ireland) and then deducing that the IRA must be good as well, despite them using violent forces to try and achieve what they wanted. For this reason, Pro cannot say that feminism cannot be detrimental to society just because of what feminism denotes; we ought to argue for, or against the feminist campaign. Rape Culture We all see the feminist campaign argue for rape. Another reason for feminism being detrimental to society is that, they seem to feed women false ammunition. They feed women the victim card, by extensively telling them how they are treated unfairly. Rape culture is one of these things. Yes, rape is bad. But, feminism seems to make it a thing, that women are the victims and men are the big bag wolfs. The real statistics are: "Along the CDC's report, the US census has recorded in 2011, in the United States, .052% of US women are forcibly raped annually". (8) This is far less then what feminism commonly asserts. In fact, from the same article, we can see men are the vast majority of homicide victims: "[Based on Federal Bureau of Investigation’s Uniform Crime Reports Supplementary Homicide Reports.]" It appears very apparent to me, that the severity of murder supersedes the severity of rape. And, if one were to factor in prison rapes, there is a clear indicator that men can be raped more than women. (9)(10) Feminists, nor the feminist campaign advocate for less "male homicides"; this is a double standered that seems to go unnoticed... Gender Roles Men and women all had their own stations... Women were generally the care takers, and men did the food-getting, the working etc. Feminism advocates that basic gender roles are sexist to females, because they assert women are just as capable of doing the jobs as males. Albeit, some women were able to do the tasks that men could, but naturally, sexual dimorphism dictates that men are the "stronger" gender. (11) If we were to apply this feminist logic to literally any other topic, we can deduce that male ducks are sexist, because they are more colourful than female ducks. Because men are genetically stronger than females, they were the more suitable gender to part take in the more muscle-demanding tasks. Gender roles isn't sexist; it is basic biology. In fact, the same logic can be reversed - gender roles are also against men, because they are not as suitable to take the caring tasks. The argument is moot and completely unecessary. All laws constitute that gender is not a factor when determining who gets the job, pay, privileges etc. (12)(13) Unnecessary Advocation of an Increased Amount of Rights and Privileges I postulate that women have more legal rights, and social privileges than their male counterparts (14). This source proposes 5 rights that women have, that men don't. Men are systematically circumcised in many countries without consent, whereas, women can keep their genital integrity. To vote, men must give their life to the draft if needed. A woman can have abortions, and a man cannot without her consent. Women are assumed caregivers for children, because they are women. Women can cry "rape" falsely, with infinitesimally small legal repercussions. Not to mention numerous privileges (15). My fiftheenth source cites around 60 major privileges that women have over their male counterparts. And after all this, feminism still claims that women need more rights than males. There is equality; feminism is unnecessary; women do not need any more rights, nor privileges. How I Fulfilled my Burden of Proof 1. The feminist campaign produces false statistics 2. The feminists feed women false ammunition 3. The feminist campaign make situations problematic for no apparent reason 4. Women have all necessary rights and privileges The first point is axiomatic in terms of detrimental effects on society. They produce false arguments about the wage gap, to affirm that women are treated unfairly. The second point is that they extensively tell women there is inequality when there isn't. They are told that they are constantly that they are the vast majority of victims of rape etc. whilst they ignore statistics about the detriments of males. The third point is apparent when you consider the gender roles argument. There isn't a prolem with gender roles, yet they twist it around to make it seem like there is a problem - it is simple biology - sexual dimorphism. The fourth and final point is that women have all the necessary rights as males - even more rights than males, yet still expect more. This is in turn, detrimental and unneccesary in society. If I, as Con, fulfill my burden of proof, I negate the resolution. Therefore, I win the argument. Closing Statements I would post more arguments, but I have ran out of characters. Hopefully Pro can appear for round three, and we can have a decent argument. Good luck to you Pro for the next round and the remainder of the argument, and thanks for instigating this topic. My spell checker is buggy, so if there are any spelling mistakes, I apologize. Citations (1) http://www.forbes.com... (2) http://www.bls.gov... (3) http://www.consad.com... (4) http://www.huffingtonpost.com... (5) http://www.forbes.com... (6) http://www.cbsnews.com... (7) http://billmoyers.com... (8) http://www.census.gov... (9) https://finallyfeminism101.wordpress.com... (10) http://www.dailymail.co.uk... (11) http://en.wikipedia.org... (12) http://www.equalityhumanrights.com... (13) http://www.eeoc.gov... (14) http://thoughtcatalog.com... (15) https://mensresistance.wordpress.com...
Feminism is not an ideology of equality
I notice you provided no definitions, so I will. Feminism, n. 1. the doctrine advocating social, political, and all other rights of women equal to those of men.[1] Therefore, any ideology which is not of equality (between genders that is, a philosophy can be racist, homophobic, etc. while still being feminist) are not feminist. [1]http://dictionary.reference.com...
Feminism is still necessary today
I will be accepting this debate on the grounds that we do not need feminism in this country anymore for it has done some good things but has evolved to the point that all it does now is degrading males and trying to get more rights for women while men get less rights. I will now turn my debate over to pro for their side of the argument
THBT feminism has failed
when we have to decide who has to stay home and look after the kids between the mother and the father, who will you choose? Mostly we choose the mother because we believe that the mother is inferior to the father, and she is not the dominant one. This concept proves that we do not consider women on the same level as men, and this is a very basic concept. But feminism still didn’t change it after fighting a battle for 4 decades!
Feminism! Hooray!
Thanks, Cartidge. Glad I got your neurons firing. I understand the main goal of feminism is simply to gain equal rights. I agree with the goal, I disagree with the actions feminists take to "achieve" this goal. "Achieve" in quotations due to the fact that we do have equal rights and we do have equal opportunities and we are treated equally. I have a couple examples of feminists (unknowingly) asking for more rights than men - Rape culture According to the site I got this picture from [1], "...or make it seem like rape is an everyday occurrence that cannot be avoided," is said, which implies rape can be avoided. So either feminists can't make up their mind, or they can't accept the fact that they can avoid rape - by dressing differently, acting differently, and overall ensuring the situation they're in is a safe one. Unfortunately for common sense's sake, most feminists tend not to understand that bad things happen, and a big part of avoiding those bad things is... well, avoiding them. Facebook pages [2], blogs [3], and other media outlets seem to think that teaching men not to rape makes more sense than teaching people in general to try and keep themselves safe. Considering this is only brought up with rape against women, and zero other forms of crime, this is a prime example of women/feminists asking for special privilege over men, even if they apparently don't realize it. Victim blaming This falls into the same category as rape culture, it is implied that if we follow through with standard criminal investigative procedures, we are essentially blaming the victim for the crime committed against them [4]. Now this is simply not true. I'll share a brief story with you while we're on the topic of victim blaming - I was challenged a few times in high school, and when I was in grade 11, I was mugged by a couple guys. I filed a police report and the cops came to my house to ask questions and if I could identify the guys, etc. They also asked what I was wearing. So you know what I did? I told them what I was wearing. And you know what they did? They told me the gangs that were affiliated with the colours and brands of clothing I liked to wear. Christian Audigier and Dussault were big "gang colours" where I'm from, and the cops suggested I not wear clothes like that. So I stopped wearing clothes like that, and whattaya know, nobody even challenged me for the rest of my time in high school. So what did I take from that? I sure didn't say "they blamed me, let's start a tumblr group against victim-blaming mugging-culture police officers." This whole idea of "victim blaming" is also essentially trying to grant women more rights than men. It's implying women should not be questioned and women should not have to be careful in life because men should be taught to behave. Fun fact: (almost) everyone is taught the difference between right and wrong from a very young age. Some men and some women (yes, women can be bad too) have mental issues or are just not taught properly how to interact with society, so they do bad things. Avoiding those people is kind of smart, wouldn't you say? Affirmative Action Now I'm against affirmative action to begin with. Giving someone a position over another more qualified person simply because they represent a minority is not beneficial to businesses or society or the economy. One major area feminists ask for "special treatment" (getting positions simply for being female) is political [5]. I'm sure everyone knows America has never had a female president and only about a quarter of office is female. Now it gets kind of tricky here, because I do believe there should be equal representation for every group of people in office to an extent, however when it comes to blatantly saying "more women need to be in office," that is asking for special rights or privileges. If men are elected over women, it's because they're more qualified than the women and the general public feels so. If a man is elected over a man, nobody bats an eye, but when a man is elected over a woman, all of a sudden it's sexism and discrimination. We can't elect female government officials simply because they "don't make up an equal portion to men." And just an FYI - women don't run for office nearly as much as men [6], so why should MORE women be elected if they don't run as much? Peer Pressure This will be short as there isn't a lot to say here, but this mostly deals with feminists complaining that women don't make up "equal amounts of job positions," while they give reasons as to why they themselves don't want to join that career path. Anita Sarkeesian (hooray) is a very popular feminist icon, mostly in regards to video games. She made a twitter post a while ago [7] saying game developers anger her because they consider it "too much work/time/money" to create female game characters (even though there are hundreds that can be named in very popular games throughout the decades), while she herself isn't doing a thing about it other than complaining. So in a nutshell, feminism also affects other women, as feminists complain that there aren't enough women in fields, such as game development, while they aren't doing anything to "lessen the gender gap" in these industries. Same goes for politics. "Objectification" I don't think you've really shown how this is necessarily a bad thing. Humans are attracted to each other. Men like women, women like men. Sex sells. Also, this is not objectification. Objectification implies the person is treated as less than human and is only looked at for their body. To be considered attractive does not make them less than human. I am not attracted to a lamp. I am not attracted to a table. I am attracted to a human. If that human is being attractive to get what they want, or to sell something, that's their choice - for feminism to say they should stop what they're doing because they consider it "wrong" is wrong in itself. Sex is not a bad thing. Feminism acts as if it is. ....Which is detrimental to basically human culture and life. Steubenville Rape Case The two teens involved were sentenced, and four other people were charged [8] in relation to this crime. One news source getting attention in a different type of way is strange, however a newswoman approaching the case from a different angle does not represent the media as a whole or society as a whole. And looking at the amount of backlash, I can guarantee you that you, me, and loads of other people all disagree with what she said. One newswoman explaining how the kids could have had good lives is not a very good example of anything other than one person being ignorant/uncaring. Female nudes When photographs such as these are leaked, the only attention (usually empathy) is given to women. If anything compromising I took were leaked, I'd say "rats, I shouldn't have sent those," and leave it at that. Just like rape, there are bad people out there, but it makes sense to be safe... There has been numerous occasions of nudes leaked of males [9], and you know what happens? Nothing. No media outrage. No feminist group calling for the heads of the aggressors. In fact, people enjoy it when male nudes are leaked. So this affects both men and women, yet women get the sympathy and attention, while the media practically asks people to dig up male nudes. Once again, a problem affecting both genders, yet feminism focuses on one. Abortion When someone is against abortion, it isn't because they want to oppress women. It's usually due to religious reasons, and if not, it's because they consider human life important. I'm 100% on your side in regards to abortion, but unfortunately I disagree with what it means when someone is against it. I don't consider male circumcision sexism against men, as pro-circumcizers (lol) have "valid" reasoning as to why circumcision is a "good" thing. Same goes for abortion, it isn't sexism or misogyny or the patriarchy, it's people believing killing an unborn baby is a bad thing. Just like circumcision is a "good" thing as it is for cleanliness, apparently prevents STDs (no idea) etc. NOT misandry. Pay Gap For the source that you cited to be reliable, it needs to back up its figures. It also needs to provide much more specific job titles. "Supervisors of retail sales workers" is so broad that it's basically the same as saying "women earn less than men in general." A difference in pay between two people is not automatically assumed to be discrimination of any sort. Two groups of people? Teachers in British Columbia, Canada, earn about 18% less than teachers in Alberta, Canada [10]. Now this is taking all types of people into consideration. So you'll seriously need to prove it's sexism when one group of people is paid less than another, and not just job performance, education, unpaid leave, etc. Domestic Violence And men are victims of violent crime much more than women [11]. Laws and police exist to prevent this, not feminists or MRA's. Domestic violence is an issue for the cops, not feminism. Feminists are asking for the laws to favour them, to not have any safety concerns, and for companies to hire them because "it would be sexist not to." I'd like to see some stuff feminism is currently doing for men, if you can. [1] http://dayofthegirl.org... [2] https://www.facebook.com... [3] http://hurt2healingmag.com... [4] http://www.feminist.com... [5] http://www.equalvoice.ca... [6] http://www.theatlantic.com... [7] https://twitter.com... [8] http://www.huffingtonpost.com... [9] http://www.thegailygrind.com... [10] http://globalnews.ca... [11] http://www.victimsweek.gc.ca....
