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Recycling paper is a good way to fight climate change.

Zarul: 1. You said all other things being equal, if we follow this we are turning this into a completely hypothetical debate, and means this debate would serve no purpose, it would be totally pointless. You have to consider reality. Reply: No, it's not hypothetical because what is being debated is one variable about demand for trees. If you want more trees, you want the demand for trees to be as high as possible and recycling paper prevents that. What recycling doesn't have an effect on is saving native forests, which I will get to later. Zarul: As well, not everyone differentiates between reycled and non-recycled paper, and this means that the two are not always competing. Reply: Go to Office Max, go to the paper section. Recycled on one self, non-recycled on the other. They are competing. Zarul: "Essentially, your next point is rather similar to the first, but I will say that if recycled paper has an effect on the demand for new paper, it is very small. New paper still greatly outweights old paper in terms of production. Zarul: A.When you cut down a tree, you reduce the amount of carbon dioxide it will be using, and thus it will be less useful to the environment." Reply: Yes, and then you plant it again and it grows back. Zarul: B. Older trees do not stop growing unless they are dead. Perhaps you've seen the rings? In any case, an older/larger tree will always use more carbon dioxide than a smaller one, such as the ones coming from a tree farm. …if they are smaller, they do not need as much carbon dioxide as they did when they were bigger, it's pretty simple. Reply: Yes, they keep growing. But what you are leaving out is that they only keep growing in one direction because gravity takes a toll after a while—That's why trees don't grow to be the size of sky scrappers. Trees have an initial growth spurt where they use the most carbon dioxide (growing in two dimensions) and then level off. Old forests really do little for carbon dioxide regulation. http://www.usatoday.com... Zarul: D. Of course commercial trees have roots, but they don't have as developed of a root system. You also didn't deny that farmed trees are less beneficial when it comes to biodiversity and preventing erosion, which takes me to the next point. Reply: 1. Leaves are what regulate carbon dioxide. Photosynthesis separates the carbon from the oxygen and stores the carbon in the wood and roots. 2. The discussion was about climate change, not biodiversity or soil erosion. With breakthroughs in genetic mapping, we don't need nature to be the record keeper of genetics. Erosion is a natural process, but can be accelerated by human interaction. Luckily since about the middle ages we have figured out to reduce this with field rotation, and other modern methods. So for point E: If the land were privately held, the tree farmer would keep it at a minimum to ensure more growth and higher profits. Zarul: F. Plants dying can cause other animals to die as well. Because all the ecosystems on earth are inter-related, this can have adverse effects on life everywhere, and further climate change. Reply: How do species going extinct cause climate change? CO2 is the end product of metabolism. If anything, that would lead to less carbon dioxide. Ofcourse I'm not saying we should kill off every animal because they produce C02, just that you need to think through some more about what climate change is. Zarul: A. Non-developed nations (which contribute more to climate change than developed ones) do not have tree-farming industries, if they need paper, they are going to chop down forests. Reply: No, the countries that contribute the most to climate change are Australia, the U.S., and the U.K. http://news.bbc.co.uk... The number one cause of deforestation is clearing of land for farming. Urban development, mining, oil extraction, and logging are others. Paper has little to do with virgin forests. By making tree farming more profitable, you are encouraging that at least some of that land will be kept for re-growing trees. Zarul: Ah yes, a poor country genetically-engineering its crops. That's honestly not going to happen, although it would certainly be a good thing. And even if it did, progress would be too slow. Reply: No, it would most likely be an American or European country that makes the discovery and uses it in lands in other countries. Why this hasn't happened yet is a separate issue dealing with farm welfare in America and Europe. Zarul: "You say that these forests stand in the way of growth? Than where will these countries plant these commercial forests, if they have not the room for national ones? Reply: Where the national ones are now. If you are poor and the forest is what stands in your way of planting a crash crop, then you will cut it down. If we didn't recycle paper, trees would be more valuable as a resource, so instead of cutting down the forest to farm wheat, you might be more inclined to cut down the forest and replant it. (ofcourse, there are also some trade policies that affect this, but that is neither here nor their) Zarul: My entire point is that recycling could preserve these forests, and you haven't proven that this isn't true. Reply: The burden of proof is on you. Zarul: You just say that it will happen anyway, but if these countries recycle, they will not need to cut down these old forests. With a little bit of replanting, and a lot of recycling, these important forests can be saved." Reply: Because it is happening now, and the deforestation has little to do with paper and more to do with clearing land for farming other things. By not recycling paper, you are encouraging the farming of trees over other things. Zarul: Indeed, the paper must be picked up, treated, and repackaged. Yet the same steps apply to new paper, the wood must be picked up, treated, and packaged. As well, there are the costs of water, fertilizer, chemicals to kill weeds, etc. In other words, recycling is the cheaper process. Reply: But the new wood is picked up from one centralized location—where it is being farmed. To recycle paper you have to have several trucks drive vast distances to collect what amounts to little paper per unit of distance traveled. If it were so much cheaper to recycle, then private companies would have started doing it a long time ago. Instead the government has to subsidies it (with money taken by force), which hides the true costs. Follow the prices. Zarul: C. As I said earlier, poorer countries will pick the cheaper process, which is recycling. You say in your refutation that poor countries would want to develop industries, but you fail to recognize that recycling IS an industry. And it would be cheaper for the country to establish a recycling industry than a commercial tree growing one, especially since these countries are already very crowded, they need all the efficiency they can get. Reply: No they won't. We can afford to waste money on recycling because we are rich. Recycling is not an industry. Here is the fallacy of that argument: Suppose I went around every house on my block and broke a window by throwing a rock through it. The person who fixes windows would get a lot of business. Is this helping the economy? No, because the money people spend on fixing their windows means they have to forgo something else—instead of buying a new window, they could have bought some new pants.So you see recycling as creating jobs, so it must be good for the economy, but you are forgetting that by creating those jobs, you are forgoing spending that money on something. That's all I could fit in. Well done, good luck to you.

Climate Shift

Well my oppenet pretty much just had a argument that says "the scientist say its right, so its right." Climate change models have been failing for years now. It was predicted that by 2013 there would benno polar ice left. In 2013 the ice capsnincreased massively. In fact, there was little polarnice in the 1930s, but the ice increased rapidly until the 80s when they started to shrink again. The warming of the earht is not unusual. The medieval warming period had heats hotter then the heat today. The little ice following it had tempatures far colder then today. This shows heat change is normal. In fact overall planet tempature has decrised since the 90s. The super hurricanes predicted by envirmentalist have not come. The hurricanes of the early 1900s were far stronger then today's. The hurricane that destroyed galvistonnis a good example. If anything shows the fallacy of climate change, it is the mound of failed environmentalists predictions.

Climate change and global warming are both total nonsense and drivel concepts.

Outline I. Co2 reaches higher point in atmosphere and saturation point myth II. Scientists disagreeing with climate science. III. Humans mass versus Earth mass. IV. Anti-government fear mongering. V. Climate has steadily increased VI. Conclusion VII. Works cited Round three rebuttals. I will now respond to my opponent’s round one and two arguments. In round four I will respond to round three and round five I will respond to round four. This is out of fairness since my opponent will not get a chance to respond to my round five. I. Co2 reaches higher point in atmosphere and saturation point myth When you add more Co2 to the atmosphere, The Co2 reaches a higher point in space, Increasing the greenhouse warming effect. The greenhouse warming effect is nowhere near saturation. The myth revolves around the misrepresentation that Co2 reaches a saturation point at the surface, So therefore, Greenhouse warming is at a saturation point. While it is true that Co2 reaches a saturation point at the surface, Some of the heat escapes further up into the atmosphere. Thus, More Co2 will reach further into the atmosphere. Insert picture of Australia and heat rising if possible from skepticalscience. Dana1981 updated July 2015. [5] II. Scientists disagreeing with climate science. First, There are climate change scientists, And they are only about 100 of them, They are experts within experts on climate change. Second, There are many scientists who disagree about climate change in less related fields, And they still have their jobs. Source Denial 101x course. III. Humans mass versus Earth mass. A virus is very small compared to a human. Yet, The measles virus kills over 100, 000 people a year. The flu viruses kills 291, 000 and 646, 000 people each year. Source CDC [6]. Viruses are measured in nanometer or one billionth of a meter. Source [7] britannica. Com That’s one millionth of a millimeter. Now if viruses kill humans everyday it is very possible for humans to act like a virus and destroy the atmosphere of the Earth. Destroying the Earth as in Darth Vader and the Death Star would be extremely difficult given our current level of technology, But destroying the atmosphere. Yes, Very feasible. Two main ways, One global cooling through nuclear winter. Option two, Global warming through greenhouse gas emission. IV. Anti-government fear mongering. First, I will add that governments historically have performed terrible atrocities, Slaves of Sparta, Slaughter of native Americans Indians during colonial times, Slave state of blacks in southern USA, The Armenian genocide, WWII holocaust of the Jews, And many more. Therefore, The instigator is correct to have a baseline level of mistrust for government. Yet, This mistrust is taken too far and thus extreme. I concur that Iraq probably was about the oil and not about freedom. Yet, Of that long list of conspiracy theories that is the only point I agree with. The world did not go into an Ice Age because we stopped using aerosols that damaged the ozone layer which also caused global cooling. Most of the conspiracies seemed to be linked to medical and viruses which is off-topic and pseudoscience. Ironically the instigator is the one who is confused by invisible monsters. Quacks constantly fear monger. Brain fog, Leaky gut syndrome, chemtrails, BPA, and many more invisible monsters to scare innocents out of money. BPA for example there just is not enough information according to sciencebasedmedicine. Org Steven Novella September 17th 2008. Just look at this sentence “Thus, The world governments constantly produce an endless stream of nonsense science to trick and fool the masses into believing all their nonsenses. This is done to herd the masses into a frenzy of confusion. A confused mass of people hasn't got time to look at the people who are causing all this confusion because they are so preoccupied in running and hiding form the invisible monsters that the governments creates to scare them. ” Akhenaten Just replace governments with quacks. Thus, The world quacks constantly produce an endless stream of nonsense science. A confused mass of people has not got time because they are so preoccupied running and hiding from invisible monsters that the quacks create to scare them. V. Climate has steadily increased I will now respond to round one. Here is a picture, Hopefully of how ocean water temperatures have steadily increased. Yes climate change is human made, The change is mostly due to Co2 from burning of fossil fuels via industrial activities. About the communists and dictators this is an inflammatory, False accusation, And bare assertion. Finally, The link between climate change and communist shows overt conservative bias on the instigator’s part, Reds under the bed mentality. Most like this person has a high belief in free market and thus disbelieving climate change on those grounds. Deciding that climate change is false and then looking for evidence to back up the decision as opposed to looking for evidence first and then a conclusion. I learned the above from the denial 101x course about deniers come to a conclusion first and look for evidence second. The conclusion is based upon strong belief in a free market economy. VI. Conclusion I have show how my opponent’s claim about Co2 saturation is misleading since Earth is nowhere near a greenhouse saturation point. Co2 is only saturated at the surface, But some of the heat escapes higher into the atmosphere and then trapped by Co2 higher in the atmosphere. I have disproved my opponent’s claim about scientists being fired for disagreeing with climate change, Plenty in unrelated fields do and keep their jobs. I have shown that humans can have a tremendous impact on the climate despite having a small mass compared to the Earth. First, With an analogy of a virus to a human. Despite the virus being much smaller, Still being able to kill humans. Second, Humans could easily cause a nuclear winter and thus global cooling. Finally, Global warming can be caused via excessive atmospheric Co2. Quacks are doing the fear mongering, Not governments. Global warming is occurring now costing 150, 000 lives annually and can be seen by rising ocean temperatures. VII. Works cited debate. Org/forums/miscellaneous/topic/4346963/ Hopefully this work cited works. I had to give up on the pictures was not posting.

The political science of climate change

That was great, very professional. As I am in no way a polished or trained debater I relish the opportunity to rebut your arguments. It is truly fun to mix it up with the ivory tower crowd! I probably should have made this at least 5 rounds, but maybe next time. I will attempt to put this in a format that is organized, but please forgive me if you get confused. Green Guilt Is there anyone on the planet that would disagree that the IPCC is the driving force behind the religion of AGW, even fabricating, or manipulating data in order to prove their foregone conclusion? Here is a good article explaining the problems with the IPCC. http://wattsupwiththat.com... See, they actually are political, but when people only follow what .gov tells them they miss these things. As far as green guilt goes, it is part of the religion of Climate Change, kind of like sinning. Teach the children to feel guilty, especially here in America and they will follow blindly. Eugenicists A couple articles on that. http://www.edie.net... http://www.thenewamerican.com... Who are the elite globalist eugenicists? Here they are. http://truthstreammedia.com... By the way you never addressed Agenda 21, the bible of the modern eugenic billionaires. The Globalist Elites Bill Gates and Soros, two of the most influential Soros even helped the Nazis confiscate Jews property during the holocaust and has no remorse, in his own words. http://thearrowsoftruth.com... http://say-no-to-agenda-21-de-population.blogspot.com... I do appreciate that you cited scholarly articles however I doubt that you personally could prove any part of them except that they were written by folks that desperately want to keep their high paying, world traveling, taxpayer subsidized jobs, and are willing to write almost anything to make the politicians happy, and who buys the politicians? The Elites. I will go further into Agenda 21 as I really would like your input on this. My take is that United Nations Agenda 21 is a soft tyranny based eugenic plan formed with the blessing of Gates, Soros and their henchmen that live above the world in partnership with entities like the UN and The World Bank. The plan is very complicated, well thought out, and full of players/minions that think of nothing except how they can get a big paycheck from these guys. Agenda 21 starts with creating the illusion that humans are wrecking the planet with CO2, which is a trace gas in the atmosphere, measured in parts per MILLION, and is actually very beneficial to plants. It is plant food, and is barely detectable, except it is the perfect measure to justify their energy reducing actions. There is a man named Maurice Strong who may be one of the most influential players you never heard of, but he is very powerful and has been pulling strings at the UN for a long long time. Here is some background. http://www.infowars.com... I prefer you watch the videos of Soros and Strong as their own words convict themselves as eugenic minded elites. By the way the industrialized world he is talking about dismantling is us, so park your carbon spewing conveyance, and ride a bike to work, or maybe you do already. The goal of agenda 21 is to move the vast majority of population into cities and to reclaim the land for use only by elites and their slaves, like the ones Marx wanted to till the fields. Are you familiar with Marxism? All of the elites are into it big time, even our president. Anyway, I want to give you a chance to rebut so I will leave you with all that, make of it what you will and please do not hesitate to challenge me and we can go 5 or more rounds if you are interested, I love to challenge the establishment. Thanks!

The American government should take an active role in stopping climate change

Yes I did read your link (http://www.epa.gov...). I read the way the EPA stated "As with any field of scientific study, there are uncertainties associated with the science of climate change." I then further read under the category of "What's Not Certain" the EPA states it is not certain about "Determining the relative contribution to climate change of human activities and natural causes." I surely do not want to go back and forth on this point, but the EPA article that you continue referring to specifically states that it is unknown what contributions the human activity has to climate change. Furthermore, the EPA's research is under suspicion anyway. There are two EPA workers who are highly critical of the EPA's memo on carbon gas. The are critical of both the substances of and the process behind the agency's proposed findings. (http://www.washingtontimes.com...) Additionally, in November of 2009, over 1,000 emails and more than 2,000 documents from the Climate Research Unit of the University of East Anglia were posted on the internet. The emails show how scientists have been altering climate date and hiding information which proves global warming caused by man to be false. These emails included some from American Scientist John Holdren, a top adviser to the president and he wrote that scientists who opposed the theories of climate change were "amateurs." He referred to using a "trick" that could be used to "hide and decline" temperature figures. Yet another mentioned how he was bothered to release date that could challenge climate change. (http://climategateemail.com...) (http://www.eastangliaemails.com...) In Terms of the NASA link you posted, yes I agree they said there was record melting in 2008. This is a major point that needs to be discussed. We are talking about an average over a long period of time to determine warming. Everyone would agree that one hour or one day of higher than normal temperatures does not constitute as a long enough time to establish global warming. For some reason, global warming supporters find a year or two or three to be sufficient enough to produce a trend of warmth. The EPA report you continue to quote says that it is uncertain in "Projecting future greenhouse emissions and how the climate system will respond within a narrow range." If your coveted EPA cannot project future climate changes, how can you? They continue to explain they aren't certain about "Improving understanding of natural climatic variations, changes in the sun's energy, land-use changes, the warming or cooling effects of pollutant aerosols, and the impacts of changing humidity and cloud cover." There are major scandals around covering up and hiding evidence that global warming does not exist. There are questions of the EPA suppressing evidence of their finding. The EPA even admits that it is unclear as to how the human race effects climate change. I must defer back to you yet again after you read all this compelling evidence and explain that the burden or proof is yours to prove and without it, American Only regulations cannot be expected. I didn't expect to have to continue showing all this information on how global warming is yet to be proven and how your EPA records are more under question and uncertain than your statements represent. As we all know, the earth has been warming and cooling since its existence. There was an Ice Age about 22,000 years ago, then the earth warmed for a bit and started to cool again for the Little Ice Age which began warming again around 1680. There was no proof or even reason to believe the earth was cooling and heating for all those years due to carbon gases from humans. (http://canadafreepress.com...) This is where the "Hockey Stick" graph makes its entrance, around 1998. For those who are not familiar with this, it is a climate graph which is one of the initial pieces of information to start the global warming hysteria. This graph mapped out a zero increase in temperature over the past 1,000 years with a sudden spike starting in the 20th century. The research which produced this used tree ring data for the first 1,000 years of its study and then added modern temperature date for the 20th century. These tree rings were hand picked and often discarded if they did not conform to the uniformity as the others did. A dendroclimatologist (one who studies climate using tree rings) told the US Congressional Committee that, "...this does not mean that one could not improve a chronology by reducing the number of series used if the purpose of removing samples is to enhance a desired signal. The ability to pick and choose which samples to use is an advantage unique to dendroclimatology." This 'hand picking' of evidence to prove climate stability and then a large spike in change raised many questions across the scientific community. (http://canadafreepress.com...) The hockey stick was eventually unmasked by one of the most basic forms of scientific testing we know today; the reproducibility test. Steve McIntyre and Ross McKitrick attempted to reproduce this hockey stick and were unable to do so. They even requested date and formulas from Mann (the person who came up with the hockey stick in 1998) and he would not disclose the codes and formulas he used to achieve his results. This raised even more suspicion since the hockey stick was published work and the methods as to how the results were found were not being disclosed. (http://canadafreepress.com...) The US National Academy of Sciences appointed a committee to investigate this matter between McIntyre/McKitrick and Mann. Ultimately, they found in favor of McIntyre and McKitrick. They explained that they tried to reproduce the date themselves and while they could not reproduce the hockey stick Mann has suggested, they were able to reproduce the findings of McIntyre and McKitrick. (http://canadafreepress.com...) To date, Mann still refuses to disclose his formula and codes; very continent for someone who's data is the reason we have this global warming debate today.