PRO

  • PRO

    Feminism has no significance or use in the modern day...

    Modern Feminism is dead

    When i say that Modern Feminism is dead, i mean that there's no actual "feminists" who stand up for equal rights. The only feminists we get today is radical feminists (aka Feminazis). Feminism has no significance or use in the modern day society. radical feminists is different from Feminists. Radical feminists want women to be more powerful than men, and feminists actually want to help women oppressed in other countries and fight for gender equality. But you don't really see feminism now days, because it's dead

  • PRO

    To say that "X is negative" is to say that X is a...

    Feminism: Positive or Negative

    Hello, hello! Let's make this a great debate. Introduction Some debate issues before I make my arguments. Since this is an "A or B" debate, Burden of Proof is shared between us. Meaning, I must make a reasonable case to believe Feminism is positive, and CON must make a reasonable case to believe Feminism is negative. First and foremost, a definition. "Feminism" is "The advocacy of women’s rights on the ground of the equality of the sexes". Since my opponent has offered no explication of the terms "positive" and "negative", I will do so. To say that "X is positive" is to say that X benefits society such that if X were not in effect/existence/practice, there would be some maxim that is not achieved. To say that "X is negative" is to say that X is a detriment to society such that if X were not in effect/existence/practice, there would be some maxim that is achieved. I find the maxim "All people, regardless of gender, race, age, sexuality, should be held equal under law" to be quite appropriate, given the topic of discussion. Of course, this can be challenged and discussed. To achieve the Maxim "Feminism" has a long standing tradition. The practices and beliefs that feminism embodies ideologically first became prominent in the 18th century. This was around the time that the system of coverture was in place. Coverture is the legal principle whereby, upon marriage, a women's legal identity is subsumed into that of her husband and she can no longer control the use of her property, nor can she sue or be sued herself, nor execute contracts. Essentially, a woman was unable to be independent of her husband. Regardless of one's beliefs regarding the subject (some suggest this was misogyny; others suggest it was a fair trade), the fact remains that a woman did not have those rights which men were afforded. It is here that advocacy comes into play. "Advocacy" is "Public support for or recommendation of a particular cause or policy" [3]. Since coverture was a legal principle, it could only be changed if it is changed in the law. Someone, at some point, had to support women's rights, otherwise coverture would still be in affect. By acting to change the law, this person X has shown support for women's rights, towards the goal of the sexes being equal, thus this person has advocated for women's rights. This person, by definition above, then, would be a feminist. Conclusion So, then, feminism allows for men and women to be equal under the law. Thus, the requirements for feminism to be "positive" have been fulfilled, per the maxim described above. Again, the maxim can be challenged, just as my explications can. However, if they are not challenged, and CON cannot show feminism to lead to a failure to attain the maxim, I have fulfilled my burden of proof. I do look forward to rebuttals. [1] http://www.oxforddictionaries.com... [2] http://womenshistory.about.com... [3] http://www.oxforddictionaries.com...

  • PRO

    Nowadays, the feminist movement is bigger than ever. They...

    Feminism is a form of sexism

    Nowadays, the feminist movement is bigger than ever. They have achieved some great things against gender discrimination. However, feminism has sexist roots in it. I think that feminism ends up being bad for society, because it doesn't defend gender equality, but a prevalence of females before males. Also, it makes the gender problem very dualistic (men vs women) when It isn't (there are transgenders, gender fluids, etc.). Then, feminism shouldn't be celebrated, but fought against, just as any other form of sexism or discrimination.

  • PRO

    Hello there, today I will be arguing on a debate that has...

    Feminism is cancer

    Hello there, today I will be arguing on a debate that has been appearing in this site a lot. And I though I would partake of it as well. Today I will be arguing about Feminism and how feminism is cancer and is how most feminist are sexist towards men. Here are my arguments. -People say that the feminist who act sexist towards means are actually feminazi. First of all, if you actually look at the definition of feminazi, it saying that feminazies are radical feminist. Which means that they still are feminist. It also annoys me how people say that feminism isn't cancer because feminism is supposed to mean equality between men and women. When most of the time the people who say that are sexist themselves. Also I think that people should instead be an egalitarian rather than a feminist. Egalitariansm is much better than feminism since they don't JUST include equality between men and women, but they include equality between everyone. - I also just wanted to clarify that I'm not saying that all feminist are horrible. I'm just saying that there are a lot of feminist who are. - One thing I'm predicting that the con may bring up is the gender pay gap. But this has been proven false on many occasions. Here are some examples http://www.forbes.com... http://www.washingtonexaminer.com... - I would also like to add( if it hasn't already been added) is that if woman have been getting payed less than men, than wouldn't the companies that were doing this get sued because of the equal pay act passed on in 1963? -Now I agree that there is still some sexism and abuse towards woman. Like woman in the middle east getting stoned to death because of genital mutilation. Other than that, there really aren't any more sexist problems to be solve for woman. -There are a lot of feminist who complain about a lot of things about somehow being sexist. In this video that I'm about to show you, we're going to have a feminist who is complaining about why toys are sexist. Here's the link. Ok so here are some of the points this person is trying to make in the video -She's complaining on how whenever she goes to the girls section, there's all of these pink everywhere and a bunch of barbies and dolls. But whenever she goes to the boy section, there a bunch of monster trucks, cars, and action figures. She's saying that she hates the "girly" thinks and that the world is telling girls that you have to like this and boys you have to like that. Well first of all, the reason that there is so much pink and so many dolls is that because the majority of girls like those. People wouldn't be selling stuff that they don't like. Same with the boys, the majority of boys like those cars and monster trucks. But there are some boys who like dolls and there are some girls who like cars. I understand that. Some of my best friends who are boys like the color pink and some of my girl best friends like to play sports and video games. -Another thing feminist might want to complain about is how woman receive so much abuse and pain from men. When actually, it's the men that receive more abuse. Statistics show that other than rape, men have a higher chance of being affected by any other crime. http://nortonbooks.typepad.com... - Imagine a very amazing, nicely polished, expensive, and large house. That house can represent old feminism. Now imagine that same house but with a HUGE amount of termites in it. Those termites represent the average feminist. Now imagine pest control, those are the good feminist. The pest control is trying to save the house, both it can't. The termites are to strong. There's no saving the house. The house now looks very worn down and ugly. That's modern feminism. There are too many radical feminist to be able to restore feminism to want it once was. That's why, in the end, it's better to just burn the house. Well, that's all I have for now.

  • PRO

    I have three main arguments against feminism: it's...

    Feminism is a form of sexism

    I have three main arguments against feminism: it's sexist, it makes sexism a dialectic problem when it is not, and it states that the feminine image is bad and that women should avoid it. Feminism is sexism This is the first and most significant argument. Sexism is discriminating by gender. As far as I'm concerned, that's what feminism does. Feminism is always fighting for the women's right but never for the men's. This is indeed discriminating men by its gender. Also, they state that all men are bad, and violent, and dominant, and oppressive, and so on, and so on, just for being men. Again, this is a way of sexism. Even the name is sexist. Feminism, that doesn't sounds like a movement looking for equity. And indeed, feminism is a one way movement. It only cares for women. I understand that women were more discriminated throughout history than men. Nevertheless, this isn't a valid argument to support discrimination towards men. What we really need is equity. Sexism isn't dialectic Feminists describe the sexism problem as dialect. They think of this problem as a war between men and women. However it is not like that. First, the relationship between men and women shouldn't be seen as a war. We need to dialogue and debate in order to achieve equity. Fighting isn't the way civilized people should act. Secondly, there's more than men and women in this problem. The gender spectrum is in this days better described, and thus more complex. There's not just men and women any more. There are transgenders, gays, lesbians, and more others. It is simplistic to describe sexism as men vs women. But again, this is another way to attack men. Feminine image is bad Another negative point of feminism is the systematic attack to the image of a woman being gentle, delicate, "feminine". They attack the women who are men dependant, who are housewives, and all what conforms the stereotype of women. I don't believe that all women should follow the stereotype. But also, I believe that women must have the opportunity to choose what they want. If they want to follow the stereotype, let them do it. If they want to be different, let them too. It's a matter of free will. However, feminists oppose to this and state that following the stereotype is wrong, and propose another way of being. Summarizing, what feminist do is limit the free will of women, making them change from one stereotype to another. As you can see, feminism is a movement which has negative effects to society. We must promote a movement of gender equity, one which ensures the protections of every gender's rights.

  • PRO

    Many modern day feminists like to attribute this to the...

    Feminism is no longer beneficial in America

    I apologize for not including sources; this is my first debate on this website and I thought that I was supposed to be making a "blanket opening statement" of sorts, if you will. 2. The wage gap is completely false. The original study used to generate the wage gap is extremely misleading; the wage gap all but vanishes when you factor in hours worked, rank, etc. [1]. There is a difference between "earn" and "pay". Men earn more than women, but they are not paid more than women. According to the CONSAD report concerning disparagement of women in the work place, women are less likely to seek higher paying jobs, apply for promotions, work as many hours, and even request raises [1]. Many modern day feminists like to attribute this to the so called "patriarchy"; however, no such thing exists. Women are more likely to victimize themselves than men [2], which leads to the internal feeling of oppression. As for the "promotion bias", just because men are more likely to be promoted, does not mean that there is a bias among employers; it is more likely that the men in question were simply more ambitious or prepared for the next rank up [1]. 3. My use of the word "juggernaut" was an implication of the cyber-lynch mob surrounding Many modern day feminists like to attribute this to the so called "patriarchy"; however, no such thing exists. Women are more likely to victimize themselves than men [2], which leads to the internal feeling of oppression. As for the "promotion bias", just because men are more likely to be promoted, does not mean that there is a bias among employers; it is more likely that the men in question were simply more ambitious or prepared for the next rank up [1]. 3. My use of the word "juggernaut" was an implication of the cyber-lynch mob surrounding feminism in the media; if you critique it publicly, you will be harassed. 1: Feminism was not a juggernaut in the media in the past because it was confined to television and public events - with the rise of social media, feminism has been able to spread rapidly across America. The term "media" is not the same today as it was in the past [3] [4] 2: Feminism is a juggernaut in the media. It is spreading lies so efficiently, that even the POTUS has quoted the false wage gap statistic [5]. Critiquing feminism will lead to harassment and possibly violence - as soon as feminism garners an outspoken opponent, they are berated and shunned. [6] [4] 3: Feminism being a juggernaut in the media is bad, because it negates any ability to critique it, which in turn is an imposition on censoring freedom of speech. 4: What 5: As I stated previously, feminism cannot be critiqued without repercussion. Thus, my justification for using the word "juggernaut". [4] [6] [7] 6: Feminism is not a unified group at all; rather it is made up of many subgroups who cannot seem to agree with one another on what constitutes "feminism". There are the man-haters [8], the whiners [9], and the intersectional feminists [10]. These groups (any many others) all claim to be the "true" feminists. That is a major no true Scotsman fallacy. 7: See 3 & 5 8: The feminists are imposing upon freedom of speech [2] [11], and physically assaulting people. [11] [12] [1] http://www.consad.com... [2] http://www.ukessays.com... [3] http://www.socialnomics.net... [4] [5] http://www.washingtonexaminer.com... [6] [7] https://books.google.com... [8] SCUM Manifesto (Valerie Solanas, 1967), p. 1 [9] [10] http://everydayfeminism.com...

  • PRO

    My opponent stated that the first definition of feminism...

    Feminism is about equality.

    I will be arguing against my opponent for the debate feminism is about equality. My opponent stated that the first definition of feminism is, "The theory of political, economic and social equality of the sexes." But what I'm wondering is, isn't that pro? I am excited to continue this debate. Thank you.

  • PRO

    In this debate, I will be arguing that feminism is not...

    Feminism Does Not Equate to Equality

    In this debate, I will be arguing that feminism is not only overrated and irrelevant in most situations (particularly societal ones), but also has nothing to do with gender equality. Definitions: Feminism does not seek equality between both genders, but to give back everything women were denied.

  • PRO

    Feminism is idiotic. It's not right to have a movement...

    Feminism is idiotic.

    Feminism is idiotic. It's not right to have a movement for "equal gender rights" but focus solely on women. I believe that the real movement for "equal gender rights" is gender egalitarianism.

  • PRO

    Feminism: the advocacy of women's rights on the ground of...

    Let's talk about Feminism

    I accept. Feminism: the advocacy of women's rights on the ground of the equality of the sexes. As Pro I will be arguing pro feminism. Therefore I believe that women should have the same rights as men. I will allow con to begin. Source https://www.google.co.uk...

CON

  • CON

    I think feminism was needed when women couldn't vote, and...

    Feminism in America (in 2017)

    I'm against feminism because it doesn't actually represent women. I think feminism was needed when women couldn't vote, and it's needed in places in the middle east... but definitely not America anymore. The definition of feminism sounds perfect, but when you actually look into it, the ideas and concepts feminists support are full of lies.

  • CON

    Child Support/Welfare: This is not an issue of feminism...

    Feminism is used against men.

    To Begin one thing I’m definitely going to make clear, the resolution be nothing other than “Feminism is used against men”. I could successful still school my opponent arguing “Feminism is selfish” but I’m not going to make that a goal of any kind, I accepted a debate challenge knowing nothing other than the resolution was “Feminism is used against Men” and I expect and demand to keep your honor by sticking to the resolution of the challenge that YOU issued Pro. So for anyone to vote for Pro in arguments he must prove the resolution that “Feminism is used against Men” not because of any arguments he makes that it is “selfish”. I have no problems with your definition “a collection of movements to raise the equality between men and women” so we can press on from there Domestic Violence: Domestic Violence is a non-relevant issue to what feminism is or is not used against. Domestic Violence is caused by people being evil, not by human movements. Feminism does not cause it and it certainly does not promote it. Pregnancy: Uh, the man already had his choice when he chose to have sex with her. He doesn’t want a kid than he shouldn’t a planted his seed. That’s really case closed to that argument. Child Support/Welfare: This is not an issue of feminism either it is an issue of justice and responsibility, if you have a child you should support it in someway, its called “manning up and being a man” if you’re a man like me. No human activist movements change that fact. Child Custody: Your source with the statistics on child abuse percentages is fascinating. Although it does not help your case. Of course they are going to be higher for women there are more homes with women in them because fatherless homes are becoming a huge problem. And the factors going into this problem are not feminism but rather what I would attribute the extended age of adolescence that is showing up in young men, forcing younger women to grow up faster. http://www.joshuakennon.com... http://www.thedailybeast.com... Circumcision: Circumcision is a religious right of Jewish family’s and has nothing to do with sexism. At the best you could start a debate over details to consent involved in this to ageism (disregard of the concerns of youth and prejudices toward youth) as we grow up adults get to make our “consenting” decisions for us for quite awhile and we do not start to truly get the legal status to grant our own consent until we are about 16 years old. So it seems I have refuted each of my opponents arguments thus far to support the resolution “Feminism is used against Men” thus leaving him yet to prove it. If he cannot come up with a way to do so in the remaining rounds you should all vote Con! I await my opponents response

  • CON

    Yes because I want to tell you that men are much more...

    Feminism is harmful to society

    "Yes because I want to tell you that men are much more likely to face discrimination than women" This statement is completely untrue. Men do face discrimination but certainly not more than women! "1. They represent most of homeless population" How does this connect to feminism being harmful to society or not?? Please explain further. 2. They are more likely to commit suicide This is true but I don't see how this connects to feminism not helping men. While we all advocate for suicide prevention, I researched into this fact and there was no link to feminism... 3. They have fight and die for war Women also have fight (and sometimes do die) in war. If you are talking about the draft, I agree that forcing only men to be conscripted is unfair. It comes from an old-fashioned view that war is only for men as women are "weak". However, as I said earlier, feminism is fighting to erase these absurd mentalities and create equality. 4.they are over represented in dangerous work occupations This comes from the belief that men are supposed to do the hard work. While men are generally 15-20 percent larger than women (https://abcnews.go.com...) this doesn't mean women can't do hard (sometimes dangerous) work. I talked about how these stereotypes are unfair and as always, feminism is working to stop this thinking. 5. They had little to no protection against domestic violence I already addressed this in Round 2. 6. They get longer prison sentence" Again, I know. Read above. "And what did feminism do ? Nothing. MEN Do Not Benefit anything from them." I have already proven how feminism benefits men. Please read my arguments next time so you can rebut them more effectively.

  • CON

    Rather than appeal to a definition of feminism, allow me...

    Feminism

    Rather than appeal to a definition of feminism, allow me to show you what feminism has done. Counter Case A1: The myth of gender equality Often espoused by feminists is the idea that men and women are equal. This could not be further from the truth. At the biological level, prima facie, it is clear that women, who are anatomically very different to men (e.g. genitals), are not equal in this sense. But the differences run deeper. At the University of Pennsylvania, there was found to be striking differences in the neurological wiring of men’s and women’s brains. Specifically, neurological connection is found to be mostly forward and back with men, whilst women have connections left to right [1]. These differences manifest in ability, such as men being “better at learning and performing single tasks, such as cycling or navigating, whilst women tend to be better at multitasking and problem-solving in group situations. These differing abilities also manifest in preferences. In his book Gender, Nature, and nurture, and as spoken in the documentary ‘Brainwash: The Gender Equality Paradox’, Richard Lippa talks of his survey that collaborated answers from over 200,000 people in 53 counties. They were all asked what they wanted to work with. He found that, “men [were] much more orientated in the thing orientated occupations. Women, relatively, are much orientated in the people professions… This is consistent across all the countries… Something biological is going on.” [2] [3]. Also found within this documentary is Trond Diseth of the Oslo Univeristy Hospital Research. Trond specifically works with “children with deformed genitals” and tries to work out which sex the children are. He does with the methodology of placing male, female and neutral toys in front of the child. He found that there are “clear differences between what the two gender gravitate towards… Children are born with a clear biological disposition” [3]. Now that it is very clear that there are differences between the genders, why is the pursuit of equality harmful (i.e. what is the impact?). Programs and organisations that push women towards certain professions, such as the ‘Steminist’ organisation, are a waste of time and money because for the large majority of women, they are not interested in the ‘thing’ orientated professions. But it gets worse. There exists ‘gender quotas’ so that there is a push towards ‘gender equality’ in the workforce. These quotas mean that a certain number of women are required to be accepted into the STEM fields, or else the college will get into trouble [4], of which was backed by U.S President Barrack Obama [5]. BUT IT GETS EVEN WORSE. In 2012, there was serious talk (involving Barrack Obama) of ‘limiting male enrolment into science fields’ [6]. Such blatant misandry is the final stage of feminist rhetoric. So, as a result of the gender equality paradigm espoused by feminists, we now have disinformation in the form of what women prefer, this results in an unfair bias wherein women now have quotas in place at the expense of men, AND THEN you have the blatant misandry of prosing to exclude men from science. What insanity! They claim to be for gender equality, yet push until men are limited and women are not! The impacts here are: disinformation, and sexist/misandric thoughts and actions. This is a reason why you should be against feminism. References [1] http://www.medicalnewstoday.com... [2] http://books.google.com.au... [3] [4] http://dailycaller.com... [5] http://www.human.cornell.edu... [6] http://www.amnation.com...

    • https://www.debate.org/debates/Feminism/8/
  • CON

    Also, given that this is advocacy on behalf of women's...

    Feminism is not sexist.

    I greatly appreciate your commitment to this debate. My opponent's argument stem from a simple understanding of the definition; each contention presented by PRO holds to the definition provided, rather than how it is applied in the real world. However, one very important thing that PRO excludes from each of these contentions is the phrase "of women's rights". The reason this is an important phrase is because it leads to some interesting assumptions posited by feminists and pro-feminists. I shall look at PRO's contentions through a lens where I apply the entire definition of Feminism to various acts. PRO argues that feminism does not support stereotypes. In Round 2, I mention the VAWA, which is a law that was put in place to protect women from violence. The result of this act, however, is much more than simply protecting abused women. While I agree that all abused persons should have legal protection under the law, I do not agree with the model used to construct the VAWA. As aforementioned, the Duluth Model posits the idea that domestic violence is used to control the abused. The Duluth Model website, which supports the VAWA, is written in such a way that men are the batterers and women the battered. Even if we do assume that women are the most frequently abused, does this justify the "Primary Aggressor" laws that are in place? I would argue no. Men are (supposedly) the ones who will use violence to control their partner [1]. This does not justify the assumptions often made that women are acting in self-defense when they hit their partners. Although women are physically weaker than men, this does not mean that they can not abuse. This is stereotyping. It is a widely held, and fixed, belief about the type of person who will commit certain acts. Also, given that this is advocacy on behalf of women's rights (particularly protection under the law), it fulfills our definition of feminism. On top of this, as this law focuses primarily on female victims and male perpetrators, to the exclusion of male victims and female perpetrators, it is also discriminatory. PRO also tries to argue that most stereotypes are directed at women. The website provided specifically mentions professional women, and the stereotypes directed towards them. This does not justify the statement that stereotypes target women specifically. PRO also argues that feminism is the key to eliminating stereotypes. I am not convinced. Even basic stereotypes against women carry a corollary stereotype against men. Even on the website provided by PRO, Feloni states that "[professional women] are expected to have kids and quit their jobs". Unless I am mistaken, children take two parents usually. If this is the case, and said professional women quits, it falls to the man to pick up the slack that her exit from the job market caused. As such, the stereotype, or rather role, that falls on men is that they will work to ensure this decision is financed. Traditionally, it has been women's role to be caretakers, and men's role to be a provider. Such a thing is what we consider gender roles. While it is argued that women had the shorter end of the stick, a large part of the negatives for men are neglected. I will not go into this, however, it is noteworthy here to reiterate such things as rape laws. Rape requires penetration. Again, male victims of female perpetrators are neglected. If rape were defined as simply "non-consensual sexual intercourse" men and women would be "equal". However, there has not been this change, and I am unaware of any attempts by feminists to change this. While the lack of evidence is not evidence of absence, it is puzzling to say the least. Shouldn't women be as legally culpable as men? Feminism, as a movement focused on "equality" should try to ensure this is the case, however, it does not, and instead feminists like Mary Koss present statistics on the instances of male-on-female rape, arguing that "..it is inappropriate to consider as a rape victim a man who engages in unwanted intercourse with a woman", without providing any reason as to why. Incidentally, Mary Koss is the feminist who presented us with the "1 in 4" rape statistic. Now, unless I am mistaken, all of these things can be considered (1) prejudice, (2) discrimination, and (3) stereotyping. In the action of advocating for women's rights, Feminism promotes sexism against men and women. Not only are men perpetually placed in the perpetrator position, women are vicariously victimized, even when they are not the victims. PRO's arguments fail to account for the actions of Feminism. Rather, PRO argues through the definition, using the "equality of the sexes" as a pivotal piece of argumentation. While this is admirable, it does not survive critical examination, mainly because the first few words (advocacy [or support thereof] of women's rights) are not taken into account. PRO does not do this, but rather discusses the act of advocacy in and of itself. Feminism advocates (specifically) for the rights of women. There are some sects that advocate for more, or even different, but the prime mover within feminist theory and advocacy is, at a minimum, the support of advocacy on behalf of women's rights. I look forward to PRO's rebuttals. [1] http://www.abuseandrelationships.org... [2] http://criminal.findlaw.com...

  • CON

    For example I did some research and I looked on this site...

    Feminism is Wrong

    Feminism is NOT about trying to be superior over men. Feminism is based on trying to gain respect and earn what we should have had a long time ago. The power to be paid like men are, and the power not to be judged by the fact that we are WOMEN doing MANLY things. Women are treated like they are only good enough to take care of their husband (boyfriend or lover as well) for their sexual needs and their hunger. No. Women are so much more than that . Then, on top of that women are paid WAY less than men. For example I did some research and I looked on this site www.iwpr.org it says " Women, in 2015 were paid 80 cents for every dollar made by men . " No. That isn't a huge difference, but it adds up.

  • CON

    Implicit in socialist policies is the definition of...

    feminism is marxism

    "Your previous point as I understand it, is that Feminism is socialist but not Marxist." I never said that feminism was socialism, I just said whether it has those ideals or not, it is not Marxism. Feminism, even this Pro-woman type isn't even Socialism, that what equal outcomes for women, all women, rich, poor, middle-class, everyone. They want gender equality, socialists want class equality, it is different, Feminism may be based in a similar model, but that does not mean it is one and the same. "All socialism is Marxism. Socialism as a economic model is conditional on two primary pillars of Marxism; specifically the identification of unequal classes and the use of force to redistribute economic output." Uhh... false... Marx created a type of Socialism, so did 20 other major political philosophers, Socialism is a broad category, which contains Marxism, but is not limited to Marxism. In fact, Marx didn't even invent Socialism, Plato, in "Laws" talks of a socialist society being the most practical and just society, (Standford Encyclopedia of Philosophy). Plato was not a Marxist, I don't think any sane human being would say that. Anyways, your point is moot, as feminism is not the same as socialism much less Marxism. "Whether that socialism is only 10% of the economy or 100%, it is still the forced redistribution of economic output. Whether you want to define the class as the proletariate [sic], economical disadvantaged, oppressed masses etc. it all boils down to the same thing: specifically that the state forces a transfer of economic output from one class to another. Note that whether or not the firm is worker owned or privately owned is irrelevant as the end result is the same." Again, false. Socialism and Capitalism are often mixed, as logically neither a truly pure free market or a truly pure socialist economy could exist. The fact that welfare exists does not give us a socialist economy, absolutely not. "While there are many theoretical and practical differences among the various forms of Marxism, most forms of Marxism share: * a belief that capitalism is based on the exploitation[5] of workers by the owners of capital * a belief that people's consciousness of the conditions of their lives reflects the dominant ideology which is in turn shaped by material conditions and relations of production * an understanding of class in terms of differing relations of production, and as a particular position within such relations * an understanding of material conditions and social relations as historically malleable * a view of history according to which class struggle, the evolving conflict between classes with opposing interests, structures each historical period and drives historical change * a belief that this dialectical historical process will ultimately result in a replacement of the current class structure of society with a system that manages society for the good of all, resulting in the dissolution of the class structure and its support (more often than not including the nation state)" That does not mean that socialism is Marxism, socialism came first, therefore we can say Marxism is a form of Socialism, but not that Socialism is Marxism. "In every point, feminism is fits the Marxist model. Point one: exploitation of women by men point two: feminist assault on family (read economic specialization necessitated when people have children) Point three: same as point two Point four: Mentioned in my previous post regarding the view of all things being caused by the environment (ie. patriarchy) Point five: Which wave of feminism are we in now? Point Six: Men and women are equal. The 'liberalism' that you mention." Even if it fits the Marxist model (a stretch) that does not mean it is Marxism. But, to disprove you even more: Point One: This is saying that capitalism causes men to exploit women, which is not true, capitalism is not usually blamed. Point Two: A feminist "assault" on the family has little to do with Point Two Point Three: A feminist "assault" on the family has little to do with Point Three Point Four: Patriarchy does not equal capitalism Point Five: Multiple waves are not exclusive to Marxism Point Six: Men and women being equal has nothing to do with Point Six "The current left are socialist and Marxists. They desire the redistribution of wealth and economic output and are willing to use the power of the state to enforce it. To argue that liberals and feminist in particular want equal opportunity is not correct. What they desire is equality of outcomes. This is not the same thing. Implicit in socialist policies is the definition of classes. Redistribution is designed to take from the 'haves' to the 'have nots' to the degree that the current powers are able to maintain political power." Some, but not all, in fact most are pretty solid capitalists. "In each of the socialist areas I mentioned in my previos post, a 'class' is identified and force is being placed to bear on other classes to provide the resources claimed by the 'disadvantaged class'." It doesn't make it socialism. "Whether a coup is successful without a shot does not mean it is not a coup. You argue there are meaningful differences between Marxism and Marxism light. At the end of the day, I see no differences." Feminism is Marxism light, where did that come from?

  • CON

    This is my opening statement because I'm not debating...

    Is feminism necessary.

    This is my opening statement because I'm not debating this round. I believe that feminism isn't necessary and in our society it's just outdated.

  • CON

    The rape topic yes woman are still raped in our society...

    Feminism

    I agree that feminism is needed in the middle east where they oppress women and beat them and publicly rape them but how can you say that single mothers are looked down upon when my sister is a single mother and she has the support of every single family and friend and person she talks to she tells us stories of men and women alike she does not even know tell her to be strong when they ask of the baby she's holding and the circumstances that she is going through I do not hate on feminists as I should specified radical feminists but from what I read I believe you to be. I am probably sure you have heard that a woman will make 77 cents for every dollar a man makes that study was pulled in from around the country and is actually what every single woman in the U.S. will make year round, that poll shows not the individual woman's earnings but the earnings of every woman in the U.S. compared to how much a man makes. The rape topic yes woman are still raped in our society but the rapists are put to trial and charged and sent to jail the words "rape culture" should not be used to describe how our society acts towards rape because like I said those rapists are sent to jail and for a very long time, women do not get shut out from help when they are a raped they can go to centers where they receive help and comfort and care and are loved. More men are raped in jail each year than women are. You say that "women deserve equal pay, respect, safety, and the ability to live your lives the way you want" show me an instance where the government has told a woman what to do and what job they should have or if they should have kids and how many they can have, that has never happened and when feminists say that woman are not allowed to do what they want they only make themselves believe this is true when in fact you are living in one of the freest countries in the world so tell me when you have heard of a girl being told how to live her life. You say that modern feminism is just as important as it was in the suffrage era. Well I don't think you understand that those women could not vote or own property I want to know in the past 80 years where a woman wasn't aloud to vote or own property because she didn't have the right to since the suffrage era women in the U.S. have been the freest in the history of the world. Today in our society you wont see woman being married like business deals because that is what they used to do, you will not see a woman being sold off into slavery legally I should add. Don't bring up ISIS they have nothing to do with this, that being said and getting back to the topic at hand I have had 0 bad experiences with a feminist I see videos online harassing men's rights activists such as Milo Yiannopoulos and others a group of women sat outside a classroom at a local college and yelled and screamed and eventually pulled the fire alarm just to disrupt them and make them stop yet when a single man standing in a classroom video taping a feminism 101 class being silent and polite was shamed on and the teachers told the class to willingly go and block the camera so they could not see what was going on. Women and feminism has turned from equality to wanting to be at a higher pedestal than men in our society when in fact you should want equality and you can say you want equality but from what I have seen and heard from feminists around the country is that you want to be better and want to put men down. My mother has passed may she rest in peace but I see the point your making and if I saw a female family member being harassed for the reasons you say they are I would be outraged and would gladly stand by her side but I have never had my aunt, sister, or any family member tell me that they are being oppressed in our society that the employer said turned down a job offer cause she is a single mother Just for the record I am 14 this has nothing to do with what we are debating about but would just like to state this and make sure you don't mistake me for a misogynistic dirty old man who hates women. I am no sexist but I do hate radical feminist with a fiery passion just as any sensible person should. "good is good enough, the wage gap isn't that big anyway" People like this don't know they're facts and that the wage gap is just a poorly misjudged piece of information that the feminists hold onto to use as a reason for attention and a reason complain and stay relevant.

    • https://www.debate.org/debates/Feminism/19/
  • CON

    That is the thing, we are not the same, our brains work...

    Feminism

    Is Feminism really for equality? I mean, I know the concept that 'females are seen as the weaker sex' or that 'females and males should be treated the same way'. That is the thing, we are not the same, our brains work differently, we are born differently, our personalities are different, our conduct is different, our styles are different, there are many things that are different. Now, what I want to know is, how are men superior? I mean, sure they (some males) have more (physical) power than females because that's just the way it is, it does NOT automatically make females weaker than them. If there are areas where men specialize in, then there are areas where females specialize in as well, rather than running after their position, why not see what females already have and work further to improve them?

    • https://www.debate.org/debates/Feminism/27/