Pro vs. con view
1031 arguments retrieved in 1.0 ms

PRO

  • PRO

    So far in this debate we have two completely different...

    This house believes that the feminist movement should renounce the title of "Feminism".

    So far in this debate we have two completely different sides. We have a con who fails to recognize women have gained their rights over time and doesn't understand that it takes time for these statistics to change. Whereas our side believes that the name feminism has already been corrupted and has many flaws to begin with. Before I move onto my third point: the feminist movement has met its objectives, the title of "feminism"" is now no longer needed to empower women, therefore should be renounced, I would like to provide a few points of rebuttal. 1) Con has claimed that men earn more than woman. That is true. However this is not due to gender discrimination or anything related. In fact, statistics have shown that woman work less hours compare to their male counterparts and that if both female and male work the same amount of hours, this so-called gender pay inequality would be so minor that it is negligible. Also, a 1997 study shows that men's educational and experience levels are currently greater than women's and that men gravitate toward industries and occupations that are higher-paying than women, including union jobs. These factors reduce the remaining wage gap by 62 percent. Therefore your argument on this gender pay gap is invalid. 2) Rape. Woman has a higher chance to be raped. That is not true. While it is physically more difficult for women to rape the average male, the male victims of female rapists tend to be of much younger age, and much smaller build than the attacker. And, male arousal is a nearly purely physical response to stimulation and does not require emotional or mental arousal. 3) Women in middled east are ALLOWED to receive education. Look at Afghanistan and Syria. Now moving onto my third substantive: the title of "feminism" is now no longer needed to empower women, there should be renounced. In many developed countries, women have already gained rights. The only places where women haven't gain equal right as men are in 2 different type of places. 1) Religious inflicted countries and 2) countries that are in flux like Somalia. Therefore, generally this term is no longer needed.

  • PRO

    So then how is domestic violence irrelevant? ... I would...

    Feminism is used against men.

    Missed third round. Sorry. All feminists believe the patriarchy. The patriarchy states that men are in control of everything, from child care to authority. Feminists believe that all cases of inequality have favored men over women. So then how is domestic violence irrelevant? Almost ANY PSA about domestic violence shows feminists saying how bad it is, and the amount of physical/psychological damage they go through (even though women are also at fault of this, yet it is rarely mentioned, since people usually view the man as a coward). Now onto pregnancy. So the man automatically doesn't get a say in the matter because he had sex? Why isn't the women at fault of this all of a sudden? She has the choice whether to have sex or not. But no, you're implying it is the mans fault only. I "Lol'd" hard at you argument for child support. It's called "manning up and being a man"? Isn't that completely contradicting the entire idea of both sexes being equal? Also, circumcision being a religious right for Jewish people? Even though you're not considering the fact that it goes against Human Rights, and is usually performed on non-religious people? Also, the same argument can be made that Female Genital Mutilation is a religious right! Anyways, new arguments. Men are constantly falsely accused of rape. Usually, the man is arrested and the "victim" gets money, even without evidence. You can even search up falsely accused rape on men and find hundreds of stories. Here's one that was sentenced at age 16. http://jonathanturley.org... and even AFTER she admitted she was lying (years later) she KEPT the money. Whenever a man tries to file for rape, he is viewed as weak or laughed at. Women constantly complain about being sexualized in media (primarily, films and music). Women complain that the women in films are giving a false portrayal of what women should be like (usually very attractive, skinny, etc.) and call out sexism even though men in films can be considered giving a false portrayal (six pack abs, etc.). I would post more, but time constraints aren't allowing me. If you want more, check AmazingAthiests videos on So then how is domestic violence irrelevant? Almost ANY PSA about domestic violence shows feminists saying how bad it is, and the amount of physical/psychological damage they go through (even though women are also at fault of this, yet it is rarely mentioned, since people usually view the man as a coward). Now onto pregnancy. So the man automatically doesn't get a say in the matter because he had sex? Why isn't the women at fault of this all of a sudden? She has the choice whether to have sex or not. But no, you're implying it is the mans fault only. I "Lol'd" hard at you argument for child support. It's called "manning up and being a man"? Isn't that completely contradicting the entire idea of both sexes being equal? Also, circumcision being a religious right for Jewish people? Even though you're not considering the fact that it goes against Human Rights, and is usually performed on non-religious people? Also, the same argument can be made that Female Genital Mutilation is a religious right! Anyways, new arguments. Men are constantly falsely accused of rape. Usually, the man is arrested and the "victim" gets money, even without evidence. You can even search up falsely accused rape on men and find hundreds of stories. Here's one that was sentenced at age 16. http://jonathanturley.org... and even AFTER she admitted she was lying (years later) she KEPT the money. Whenever a man tries to file for rape, he is viewed as weak or laughed at. Women constantly complain about being sexualized in media (primarily, films and music). Women complain that the women in films are giving a false portrayal of what women should be like (usually very attractive, skinny, etc.) and call out sexism even though men in films can be considered giving a false portrayal (six pack abs, etc.). I would post more, but time constraints aren't allowing me. If you want more, check AmazingAthiests videos on feminism

  • PRO

    There are no new arguments needed as my previous point of...

    Modern Feminism is Not Needed in America

    I would start by saying, sources were to be made at the end of arguments, not at the end of points as stated in the rules. My sources have been linked in order of their use in my arguments if there is any confusion, which when relating to most debates, there should not be. Con has repeated putting sources after points, not arguments. There is not mutual blame, as I have not based my argument off con's position solely, rather off the prevailing views of feminism, and have included his points in the broader stance. I withheld points for the rebuttal rounds, con could have as well. Wage Gap: I included con's position when stating "Most arguments in the 90%-96% range still do not account for many factors that go into yearly earnings, such as the fact that women work on average 42 minutes less each day." I stated this in the first round, and Con proceed to use 2 sources which did not include hours worked. There are no new arguments needed as my previous point of gaps portraying a 92%-96% deficit disregard hours worked remains undisputed. Equal Opportunity: As stated previously I was not directly referring to a specific wage gap, but rather the wage gap as a whole. Though con did provide evidence that women in the same job title get paid less, it is not a complete dispute as equal opportunity does not always merit equal outcome. Further, just because they are paid less in the same job, they on average do not work as long, which went unaddressed. As con stated as well, there are no laws that are in direct conflict with the opportunity women have. Rape Culture: Take 2.1/1000 and it results in .0021, computers have a calculator function if there is not a calculator readily available. Further women are treated equally in law when regarding rape, and that when including prison rape, women and men are near equal annually. Lastly, as I stated earlier, I was making my first argument in response to prominent feminist beliefs, and the position that con holds is portrayed in the argument. Female Representation: As stated in my equal opportunity argument, less representation is not indicative of less opportunity, and as a result less female writers is not a reflection of inequality, rather it is reflective of choices. This also holds true for all professions, many in the same field such as book writers and TV shows. Lastly I included Steam as a source as it is the biggest PC platform. Sources: -http://time.com...# -https://www.inc.com...

  • PRO

    What happened to being treated the same as men? ... If...

    Modern Feminism Is Pointless

    In both my daily life and on the news I am seeing more injustices across America. Not for women, but for men. Before you accuse me of being a sexist let me point out that I absolutely believe in equal treatment of women. However, women are still "fighting" for equal rights despite the fact they have the same if not more opportunities than men. The whole idea of modern feminism in my opinion is completely hypocritical. Many women today want to be treated the same as men, but if the going starts to get tough for them they try and act all innocent to get away with things that a man could never get away with. Last year I saw a study done on women fighting in the Armed Forces and 60% of American women think they shouldn't be in combat. What happened to being treated the same as men? So basically you're saying that if it could be beneficial you want that same opportunity, but if it could do you harm you want to be treated differently than men. This is the same attitude that got Casey Anthony acquitted for the murder of her daughter even though it was evident that she had something to do with her daughter's death. When women play all innocent and victimized they can get away with almost anything and they know it. Women are blaming men way too much for their problems when they are just as if not more responsible for their own problems. The reason rape is a lot more common today is because women and girls tend to dress in very exposing clothing which tends to make men unpredictable at times. Almost everywhere I go I see a girl with booty shorts, nylon pants, or their underwear hanging out. If women would cover themselves up more rape would be less frequent. Celebrities like Miley Cyrus who are telling women to act like sluts to get attention are only making things worse for women. There is a reason guys always seem like horny idiots and it's because women give them the idea that they are willing to have sex. If women want to be respected they have to act like proper women, be willing to take responsibility for their own actions, stop blaming men for their problems, and work towards more opportunities instead of waiting for them to be handed out.

  • PRO

    Republican voters tend to have a higher work ethic than...

    Modern Feminism

    REBUTTALS Con: "Actually, the "wage gap" has to do with comparing lower-rate jobs to higher-rate jobs, and women in higher rate jobs are newer, thus receiving less pay." 1: Con continues to fail to cite a single source. I've cited 4 studies that corroborate my point. 2: Con's point doesn't make sense. The wage gap didn't change significantly between 2000 and 2010 [15]. Yet during that period "women in higher rate jobs" worked 10 years, potentially getting promotions and pay raises, without shrinking the wage gap. Con: "But I guess a sexist-feminist like yourself wouldn't understand." 1: This is ad hominem. Simply because I am feminist does not mean that I cannot understand or that I'm incorrect. Con: "And by the way, look up the stats. There are, in fact, a higher percentage of welfare recipients that have NO JOB APPLICATION OUT that consistently vote democrat. Democrats are the moochers and bad people that simply can't do anything without a hard working tax payer holding their hand. THAT'S ALL THERE IS TO IT! Political views are all about personality. Republican voters tend to have a higher work ethic than democrat voters. This is pure analysis of the voting public. Like it or not, democrats tend to be the lazier party that doesn't do any work on their own. Detroit, bankrupt, democrat controlled. Chicago, not very stable economic situation, highest murder rate in the country, democrat controlled. WASHINGTON D.C., UNTIL NOW THEY'VE BEEN ON THE DRASTIC DECLINE IN ECONOMICS! THE ONLY REASON WE ARE STARTING TO HAVE DEBT REDUCING BUDGETS IS BECAUSE THERE IS A REPUBLICAN MAJORITY IN THE HOUSE AND SENATE NOW! And Hillary herself her family was, "dead broke," when they left the White House. So yes, democrats tend to mooch off of other hardworking people." 1: Condescension, much? CAPS? 2: Con continues to fail to cite a single source. 3: Research suggests that political ideology has very little to do with whether or not someone got food stamps [21]. There exists a work requirement for welfare, suggesting against "mooching" [22]. Welfare actually has empirically been proven to make people more likely to work [17]. And, in fact, majority-Republican states are the largest recipients of federal welfare, while majority-Democrat states come closer to breaking even [18][19][20]. Con paints a picture of Democrats as moochers, when welfare is quite bipartisan. Con: "Now, in conclusion, I have shown you why my ideals point me this direction, all you have done is suck on the lie that "women aren't equal."" 1: Good to know Con's ideals determine his interpretation of reality, not vice versa. Con: I have very well shown that there is a distinct difference between TRUE and MODERN feminists. TRUE feminists, being hardworking, ethical women supporting equality (REPUBLICANS). MODERN feminists, being lazy, mooching, evil, pro-female superiority (DEMOCRATS). 1: Con has failed to respond to any of evidence, which actually had citations, and which actually quoted feminists. Said evidence showed that modern feminists and Con's prefered feminists are actually one and the same: Supporters of equality: REASONS FOR DECISION Conduct: Con has consistently talked down to Pro. Grammar: Con has often USED ALL CAPS to make their points. Arguments: Con has failed to show that a wage gap does not exist; Pro has provided multiple studies that suggest otherwise. Con has failed to show that modern feminism promotes female supremacy, while Pro has used numerous sources to show the opposite. Con has attacked Democrats for qualities that Pro has shown they do not have. Sources: Con has 22 sources. Pro has 0. Con's sources include federal studies, opinion polls, and numerous actual quotes. Vote a 7-point Con ballot! REFERENCES [17] wes.sagepub.com/content/29/1/99.abstract [18] ijreview.com/2015/01/230371-2-map-shows-red-states-rely-federal-aid-looks-can-deceiving/ [19] businessinsider.com/red-states-are-welfare-queens-2011-8 [20] politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/2012/jan/26/blog-posting/red-state-socialism-graphic-says-gop-leaning-state/ [21] pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2013/07/12/the-politics-and-demographics-of-food-stamp-recipients/ [22] edition.cnn.com/2012/08/23/politics/fact-check-welfare/index.html

    • https://www.debate.org/debates/Modern-Feminism/2/
    • score
      BM25 score: 16.40
      feminism: 16.40
      conclusion: 11.41 (boost 1.50, idf 5.97, tfNorm 1.27)
      premises: 3.02 (idf 5.90, tfNorm 0.51)
      sourceText: 1.97 (boost 0.20, idf 4.68, tfNorm 2.11)
  • PRO

    I do not buy the thought that men dealing with a lack of...

    On balance modern Feminism is beneficial to the modern United States.

    That was a very well written rebuttal. I could not help but laugh when I read “My arguments have been dismissed by feminists because I am a man, and do not know what it's like to be a woman.” I assure you I will not follow suite, as I am also a man who does not know what it is like to be a women… ha ha! I get just as amusing responses when I, as a man, publically identify as a feminist. Alright, lets get to rebuttals. Economic Injustice: Con says “I also, for the life of me, could not find any statistics showing pay between men and women based on same job, same work experience, same age, and same education. I did however find a census. pdf that showed there is a 23% difference between men and women for the most part, but this has nothing to do with specific jobs” First, I would also like to note that con confirms my stat of a 23% difference when you compare all full time men and women. That is the same as 77 cents on the dollar. It took me a great deal of time to find the stats that I shared last round. However, I specifically included examples of men and women who had the same job title specifically to address this issue. While the data is not comprehensive enough to take into account work experience, age, and education, it does take into account job title and gender. In every case it shows quite the disparity. Even with all the other variables absent, looking at job title and gender gives a good indication that gender has something to do with it. Con asks “why is it when as soon as a man gets paid more than a woman, everyone blames sexism and says there's no possible way a male can be paid more than a female other than blatant sexism?” This is a great question, but the answer is simple. As gender being a large commonality and because the disparity is so large, as well as generally true, it seems to imply gender as, at most the reason for, and at least, part of why the gap exists. Of course there are going to be cases where an individual man is better qualified and therefore worth paying more for a job than a women. However, stats show this pay gap to be the case across the board. Indicating again that gender at least is an indicator if not the cause entirely. Con says “Would it be possible women just generally don't excel as much as men do in jobs such as engineering or mathematics or technology, and excel more in jobs geared toward "natural female" jobs, such as child care, or jobs that require a personable personality?” A study that compared men and women’s cognitive capability concluded that in math “the researchers found no large overall differences between boys and girls in math performance. “ (1) this study goes on to show that if anything “165 studies revealed a female advantage so slight as to be meaningless,” as far as verbal skills. Con says “Men handle lack of sleep better than women do.” Not that my experience is an all encompassing one, however I have been hired at 8 different companies, not once was I ever asked how well I handle a lack of sleep. I do not buy the thought that men dealing with a lack of sleep better really impacts their value in the work force, though if my opponent wishes to elaborate this point, so be it. Con says “On average, women don't have as well paying jobs or as well "respected" jobs as men? I can agree with that. However you would need to prove that this is directly related to blatant sexism, discrimination, etc against women.” Again I would just point out that the stats and information I provided did specifically compare those who had the same job title and gender. Unless con has a definitive reason to discount the sources I used, the pay gap by gender is pretty well supported. Con says “Did you forget upwards of 70% of the homeless population is male.” I confess I was unaware of that stat, and at first glance seems to undermine my argument about women and poverty. However, the number of the homeless is not comparable to the number of people who live in poverty. 600,000 homeless(2), vs 45.3 million in poverty.(3) When you apply the percentages we are comparing 420,000 men to 31.7 million women. It is like comparing suicide deaths to heart disease. Which has the bigger impact on society? The numbers hardly compare. Clearly the pay gap is empirically evident and as such is indisputable. Just as evident is that poverty affects women significantly more so than men. It can then be concluded that men and women do not have an equal rights or opportunity in the U.S. economy. Domestic violence: In watching cons first video, it becomes apparent that while people did not take women abusing men very seriously, this is largely because people did not view female aggression, as the lady concluded “ as not very important, not very deadly, nothing really to react to.” Rather than supporting my opponent’s argument, this really supports the idea that women are not taken as seriously as men. It serves as empirical evidence to all who watch that women are not taken as seriously or treaty equally. Con says “Statistics are great, however you have not provided a correlation between domestic abuse and sexism.” Like the pay gap, the huge disparity between the numbers when you compare men and women is what makes it evident that it is a gender issue. How Feminism can help: Con says “I completely agree 100% that feminism was needed at a time, and did help drastically with women's rights and safety, and it was completely necessary in the 20th century." Con says “it doesn't matter if "true" feminists don't consider these women "true" feminists, what matters is "true" feminists still associate with these "fake" feminists, or "feminazis," by sharing the same name” It does make a difference, though I would not argue that they are not true feminist, I can easily argue that the extreme view you have encountered in not the general view. Much like the KKK is Christian, but nobody looks at the KKK to get a good idea of Christianity. Muslim terrorists may be followers of Islam, but clearly the fast majority of Musliums have taken issue with how the “extremist” has portrayed the religion. in reference to your comment “you support rape if you like the song 'blurred lines." I would not assume that every “feminist” you meet is well educated, intelligent, etc… again it is like when a Christian parent won’t let their kids read Harry Potter because of witch craft. I would say there are crazies in every group. (I am so sorry if offended someone with that.) It does not however define the whole group. All in all feminism is about equal treatment of the sexes. That is what is has been traditionally, that is what it is today, and likely what it will continue to be. Fringe groups do exist, and they do cause damage. This damage though is a blip in the big picture as feminism is on balance, beneficial to the modern United States. Conclusion: The economic disparity stands, as the numbers don’t lie. The comparison between the homeless and poverty falls as it is overwhelmed by sheer numbers. This is also true of domestic abuse. Cons video shows that society does not treat women equally. Fringe groups do not steer the message and stupid statements do not define a group. On balance modern Feminism is beneficial to the modern United States. (As a side note, against my greater judgement, I am posting this very late at night. I hope my argument seems as coherent to me in the morning as it does right now LOL! I’m not as good at staying up late as I used to be.) (1) http://www.apa.org... (2) http://thinkprogress.org... (3)https://www.google.com...

  • PRO

    If you were to go to many work places, the boss or the...

    Feminism is relevant in the 21st Century

    Yes, but what exactly is their position at work? If you were to go to many work places, the boss or the one in charge is still usually a man. And women are still considered the weaker gender. Yes, the number of working women has increased but their position is still quite low. The laws have made a difference but how much of a difference? It's like how it is against the law to discriminate people for their race. People still do it but in a more discreet manner or in a way that they cannot be faulted. Just because laws have been passed about women being treated fairly does not mean that everyone will abide by the the rules And when you say feminism is not relevant in western countries, you are talking about the modern people in these countries. There are still families who are very religious or, in a way, "old-fashioned" and still follow the gender discrimination where the men are the head of the families and that their decisions matter most. These cases are not looked at because the women themselves are too afraid to speak up on their behalf or they don't even know its wrong. Sometimes, religious beliefs and the laws clash and the women are just caught up in the middle or fear doing anything because it has been going on for generations in their family. They believe that there is no other way; that they are merely following in the other's footsteps. This does still happen in western countries. Maybe not in very modernised places like New York or Washington but in other less modern parts where everything is very traditional. Another example is the percentage of women in politics. Only about 20% of women are in the political field when half the population is of women. The percentage has increased and yes there is a number of powerful women in politics but the ratio of men to women in politics is still not equal. The reason that it is even increasing is because feminists are trying to push for their rights. This is the time when it is important for women to continue to argue for their rights so that they will be equal. If these women are to stop at this point just when they are about to get what they want, all their hard work would go to waste. The time they stop should be the time when both genders are equal, not during this critcial point in time when women are just starting to get what they have been fighting for for so long.

  • PRO

    What country are you from (because this mostly has to do...

    modern day feminism does more good than harm

    I will be representing the 'pro' side, for moder day feminism please answer the following questions: 1. Political party (and what canidate you're rooting for)? 2. What country are you from (because this mostly has to do with America)? 3. What is your gender/sex? ____________ Rules: 1. No trolling 2. No forefits 3. No use of racial slurs (sad I have to say that) ____________ Debate set-up First round: Acceptance Second Round: Introducing your arguement (no reply from con!) Third round: Debating the others arguement (no new arguement) Fourth round: Conclusion and finishing thesis statement

  • PRO

    It may seem like a good thing but when thinking about it...

    Feminism Is Hypocritical and Sexist Against Men

    Before I start thank you and good luck to you too. I don't deny that there are real feminist who stand for equality, but I'm talking about the "Feminazis". I believe we need to stop the rabid, insane hypocrites because they are getting out of control. Even when we're talking about real feminist I never hear them talking about things that effect men. I believe that anyone who actually stands for equality of both sexes is an egalitarian. because if you think about you're it's impossible to equalize both genders by only talking about the problems only one gender has. And a feminist can't stand for equality on that basis. The definition of feminism is ."The advocacy of women's rights on the grounds of political, social, and economic equality to men." It may seem like a good thing but when thinking about it is like trying to make gray without using black paint. Just only using white paint. It's just not possible. In order to become a completely equal society we need to go for Egalitarianism and then take both genders problems, and do three things 1. Look at each problem 2. Determine if it's actually a problem (On the basis of - A. Does this really have any actual effects on people? B. If so how damaging is it? C. If we do fix it would people actually notice a change? D. Would people care? E. is there an actual solution?) 3. Fix the problems Only then could we make a completely equal society.

  • PRO

    The pay and promotion gap is not very true considering...

    The west doesn't need feminism, it needs to move

    The pay and promotion gap is not very true considering men generally work more, doing the heavy lifting, in the police work https://gyazo.com... Women are more likely to receive sexual assaults but men are more likely to be either beaten, robbed or even shot dead Men also tend to commit suicide more as stats have shown Men are raped in prison Approximately 216,000 prisoners are raped per year in the U.S., compared to about 90,000 reported rapes outside prison While feminists still speak of equality, they never complain about this problem (3rd wave feminism), instead focusing on the women problems Feminists also never seem to speak about the "never hit a woman" being a problem rather than a good thing, this meant that girls smack, push and tease boys in school and can just say "you can't hit me back, I'm a girl" and if they do the boy will get suspended or detention while the girl goes off scot free. {1} http://thoughtcatalog.com... {2} http://www.huffingtonpost.com... {3} http://prisonwriters.com... {4} https://www.hrw.org... {5} http://www.theapricity.com...

CON

  • CON

    So what have we found out? ... [1]...

    On balance modern Feminism is beneficial to the modern United States.

    Thank you! I'm sure plenty of people from every group have those types of people who shut you down before you can even present an argument. I'm kind of wishing this was 5 rounds now, as this is fun. Economic Injustice There is a huge difference between 77 cents to the dollar and a 23% earnings difference between men and women. 77 cents to the dollar implies women are paid 77 cents when a man is paid one dollar for the same job. This is not the case, and a site giving an "example" with no sources to back it up doesn't quite cut it, unfortunately. A 23% earnings difference between males and females implies the total earnings for men would be (for example) $100,000 a year (because of the types of job men pursue), whereas the total earnings for women would be $77,000 a year (also due to the types of jobs they pursue). I am not denying there is a difference in average income, but this is quickly shown to be anything but a patriarchy, or sexism, or discrimination, or any sort of negative bias against women, simply by looking at the types of jobs women have, and the types of jobs men have. Are men more qualified to work hard labour jobs due to their physique and willingness to push themselves and their muscles? It would be fair to say so, and it just happens jobs that require brute strength also pay more, due to how demanding this line of work is. Are women more qualified to work in childcare, due to their instinctive "motherly" nature and willingness to look after children. Unfortunately in a lot of cases, child care doesn't pay a hell of a lot. Although I'm familiar with some day cares who earn upwards of $800/child/month, it does take at least a year of schooling to work with them. So right away, we see that men earn more on average due to the types of jobs they pursue. So why is it women aren't represented enough in higher up, CEO positions, or politically? Well, quoting the Guardian, "A 2006 survey found that while 80% of women felt underpaid, two-thirds had never asked for more money" [1]. Now the article goes on to say it's stressful for a woman to ask for more money due to the "pay gap," but wait, back up - Women won't ask for more money because... they aren't getting as much money? It's stressful as hell asking for a raise, I've asked for a couple, and I remember how incredibly nervous I was. This has nothing to do with it being a "women's issue" being stressed while asking for a raise, it's an all around issue. Asking for more money - no matter who you are - can be very stressful. So now that that's out of the way, we have to figure out why women don't ask for raises or promotions as much as men. Without doing research, I came up with a hypothesis (judging by how my female friends and colleagues act in comparison to their male counterparts) that women feel the need to "complete" their current job, or gain as much knowledge as possible in their current job before attempting to advance to a higher up position, whereas men tend to ask right off the bat for a promotion. On a side note - my very first job was at a four star restaurant, and I started as a bus boy, or busser (for the gender-neutral people, lol) and within the first month of working there, I told the GM I'm working at becoming a manager at this restaurant and I want him to know that I'm willing to do what it takes to advance to this position. Yes, it was nerve racking, but it felt natural to ask for a position like this right off the bat, knowing full well I'm not even 2/3 familiar with my current position yet. The one girl who was a busser continued until she was asked to move up, as she said she was comfortable bussing and didn't "feel the need" to move around in the company. Yes, this could have been an isolated situation, but wait! Here's an article to back my "hypothesis" up with [2]. So what have we found out? Women tend to work jobs that are more fit for their "gender traits," mostly child care, which unfortunately doesn't pay as much. Women tend to not ask for promotions or raises as much as men. Unfortunately, neither of these is definitive proof that the gap exists within the same job, between a male and female of equally qualified characteristics. This gap is anything but across the board [3], and as you can see - women (on average) are paid more than men for a lot of jobs. Some people are able to perform better for certain jobs, and it happens that the majority of one gender usually performs better for most types of jobs. I just found out (I may be out of the tennis loop...) that women earn as much as men do in Tennis. ...Makes sense, right? ...Well no, it doesn't. Not at all. Women play the best of three, while men play the best of five. Right off the bat, men work longer. This also means less time for ad revenue, and statistics show that less people watch women's tennis than mens [4]. So let's see if this is fair: Women work less, generate less views, less ad revenue, yet they get paid the same as their male counterparts? Of course you could argue that feminism is trying to abolish this unjust payment, but hey... of course it isn't. Feminism does what's best for women, and if men happen to benefit, these benefits are plastered all over as "YES, MEN BENEFIT FROM FEMINISM TOO!" - Even though it was a simple product of feminism helping women. Of course your company isn't going to ask how well you sleep or how you handle a lack of sleep - they could consider it simply because of your gender (hold on, let me continue), and the "idea" that men can handle a lack of sleep more than women goes to show that men could be considered more productive due to this idea. If you were an employer, would you prefer someone who got burnt out after 8 hours, or someone who is able to work 10+ hours without getting burnt out? Now this isn't necessarily "fair" per se, but it isn't discrimination based on gender. The employer is simply considering who would be the most appropriate candidate for the position he's offering. The way I see it all is if an employer provides actual reasoning as to why he isn't paying a woman as much as a man, or vise versa, or hired a man over a woman, that's good enough. It's his call to make. Saying he's sexist because he feels the man is more fit for the job than a woman, with an actual reason other than "because he's a man," is absolutely ridiculous and is attempting to take all responsibility off the woman. You bring up a good point regarding poverty and homelessness, so thank you. However I guess I may as well bring up Cancer related primarily for men and women. Approximately 30,000 men will die in 2014 from Prostate Cancer, and 40,000 women will die by the end of 2014 from Breast Cancer. In 2012, $265,000,000 was funded for Prostate Cancer research, whereas $600,000,000 was funded for Breast Cancer research [8]. These numbers just don't add up. Less than half is funded for Prostate Cancer, when Prostate Cancer deaths still make up 75% of Breast Cancer deaths. So let's put the poverty levels aside, and look at the general populations' view on deadly cancer for each gender. You see Breast Cancer ribbons everywhere, NFL teams wear pink to support Breast Cancer, you can't deny the fact that Breast Cancer is funded much more than Prostate Cancer, and it's much more involved with the media, even though it only affects a slightly larger amount of women than Prostate Cancer does men. The only thing regarding the pay gap I can agree with you on is that men do get paid more than women in general. An employer that gives a valid reason as to why he pays a male less than another male holds the same validity when he gives a reason as to why he pays a female less than a male, or vise versa. Poverty affecting women doesn't have anything to do with opportunity or equal rights, as I've proved that women don't ask for as much as men, and generally don't commit to the same high-paying jobs as men do. Domestic Violence I thought you would bring that up, and the only real thing I have to say about this is equality. They don't take the woman beating the man seriously, just like they don't take the man being beaten by the woman seriously. Both are equally negatively effected. A gender issue is not an equality issue. Women choose lesser-paying jobs, and choose not to advance as much as men. The difference between Christianity and the KKK is there's a clear difference between the two. Feminism and "feminazis" - not so much, in regards to social media attention and coverage. I've encountered, personally, more women who identify as feminists that are rude, disrespectful, hate men, and want female superiority than "true" feminists. Conclusion I'm all for equal treatment, however I don't believe we have any reason to think we aren't treated equally. Because some people have it worse than others does not mean they weren't given the same opportunities as their counterparts. If feminists, for example, changed the name of their group to "egalitarianism," it would get rid of the extremists and erase that blip entirely. Numbers are numbers. What are the reasons behind these numbers? Discrimination? Sexism? Or simple "poor" choice on behalf of the victims? My video shows both men and women are treated poorly. Hope you got a good sleep! [1] http://www.theguardian.com... [2] http://knowledge.wharton.upenn.edu... [3] http://www.news.com.au... [4] http://www.heraldsun.com.au... [5] http://www.cancer.org... [6] http://www.cancer.org... [7] http://www.cancer.gov... [8] http://www.cancer.gov...

  • CON

    Women are more likely than men to leave the workforce or...

    Feminism is not needed in America anymore and is corrupting some minds.

    Thanks for the debate, Pro. [1] Pro: "Feminism use [sic] to be a great movement. I am totally for gender equality and women have that in America." (A) Feminism is still for gender equality. The vast majority of feminists believe so, and criticize those who support female or male supremacy. (B) Women do not have gender equality in America, as will become clear. [2.1] "Some feminist think that women make around 77 cents to a mans dollar." (A) The gap is smaller than that, but it still exists. [2.2] "women are more likely to work 35 to 39 hours a week when men are 4x more likely to work 40+ hours" (A) To quote the Bureau of Labor Statistics [1]: "[E]mployed men worked about three-quarters of an hour more than employed women. [...] This difference partly reflects women's greater likelihood of working part time. However, even among full-time workers (those usually working 35 hours or more per week), men worked slightly longer than women " 8.2 versus 7.8 hours. Among part-time workers, men averaged 5.2 hours on days they worked and women averaged 5.4 hours." Only considering full-time workers and number of hours worked, the 0.4 hour difference might justify a ~5% pay difference; however, the pay gap is far larger. Further, this difference in working hours is explained largely by women being forced to take care of children, which is unfair and perpetuates gender roles. The AAUW reported [2]: "[B]ecoming a mother can negatively affect women"s earnings, while becoming a father does not typically have the same effect (Correll et al., 2007). Women are more likely than men to leave the workforce or reduce their work hours after they have children, thus reducing their earnings (AAUW Educational Foundation, 2007). Research has found that even among full-time workers, mothers face an earnings penalty in the workforce compared with women without children (Correll et al., 2007)." Yet even for childless women, the pay gap exists [2]: "One year after college graduation, men and women have much in common. [M]ost women and men who had earned bachelor"s degrees the year before were young, single, childless, relatively inexperienced in the workplace, and working full time. We might expect to find little or no gender pay gap among this group of workers at the start of their careers. Yet just one year after college graduation ... [w]omen working full time earned $35,296 on average, while men working full time earned $42,918[.] These figures represent a female/male earnings ratio of 82 percent, which is slightly higher than it was in 2001 when, among the same group, women earned just 80 percent of what their male peers earned (AAUW Educational Foundation, 2007). .... Among those who did have children, though, both men and women earned more than their counterparts without children. Mothers tended to be older than other female graduates, which may account in part for their relatively higher levels of pay. Not surprisingly, among full-time workers just one year after college graduation, the pay gap cannot be explained by motherhood." [2.3] when women go into labor and have children when they come back there male counterparts will have more experience (A) See above. [2.4] men are more likely to go into dangerous but more highly paying jobs Dangerous jobs don't pay more than less dangerous jobs [3]. Consider that the 4 jobs with the most fatalities are farming, mining, transportation, and construction, often noted for their sky-high wages. [2.5] Now on that fact there are many different thoughts on whether it is based on how the brain is different between males and females or society but they have equal opportunity to work in those fields. Do women have equal opportunity? Consider that even little things, little discriminations (like the teacher tendency to underscore female achievement on STEM-related tests) can have massive consequences for female employment opportunities [4]. [3] Many (I don't know the exact statistic) women will be raped. Now what I am about to say buy no means do I support or feel bad for rapist it is horrible and sick. I would like to know what feminism can do about rape? Many rapist don't see women as sex objects or less than men but they crave sex. How they get it is sick and horrible but this is not due to sexism just the fact the they crave sex and will do disgusting things to get that. Not to mention many rapist are mentally ill. (A) Feminism opposes "rape culture" (in which many males and females think that they have some kind of right to sex, regardless of consent) which causes at least some rapes. Feminists have also set up numerous centers to assist rape victims. Feminists also led to the redefinition of rape from a male-vaginally-raping-female action to a much broader action that has led to justice for many men and women. In fact, the prevalence of female victims (maybe 75% of all rape victims are female) suggests that women need *more* relative power to men. [4] Women are not shown enough in high level jobs political or not. Now women have the opportunity to be in these jobs just like men. Look at Hilary. Me, I am against Hilary but if she makes it then good for her. Women can and will make it as high of a level job that men have been and are. Now for the fact that men dominate political jobs. Now this is my thought not really facts but men have had more rights than women longer than women have had equal rights. This means that women have not had the time men have had to get into office. Now this may be sad but it's true and that may be one reason. Another is that some people argue the senate and other political groups should be 50/50 males and females. The question here isn't why are we not allowing as many women into the government but it should be who is best for the job. If a man is better than the women hire him. If the women is better than the man hire her. (A) Women are about 20% of Congress members [5]. Women are 50% of the population. Can you seriously argue that men are 60% more skilled than women at governance? [1] http://www.bls.gov... [2] http://www.aauw.org... [3] http://amptoons.com... [4] http://nber.org... [5] http://www.cawp.rutgers.edu...

  • CON

    The not-so-recognized reasons are: Family courts, Family...

    Modern western nations have birth rates below replacement levels, Feminism is the cause.

    First, I correlate certain things with feminism: Abortion and birth control are obvious reasons, I equate them as products of feminism. The not-so-recognized reasons are: Family courts, Family courts favoring the mother for custody eighty percent of the time, A detachment from family customs and heritage/legacy due to lack of biological fathers raising kids, Therefore and as well a lack of a cultural and cohesive identity. Women being told for decades by popular media and academia that motherhood is a sub par job and equating it to oppression. Domestic violence accusations by vindictive or jealous narcissistic partners are to be believed at the moment of allegations by police and later by prosecutors where an order of protection/restraining order is granted at a whims notice, Such issues effect the defendant's rights to own a gun and effects the outcomes of parental custody rights to their children. There are a myriad of other reasons why birth rates are low, One example is women waiting to have children after college and their career has started, They usually have just one on average. Birth control also has been known to cause infertility at quite an alarming rate. Men have stopped pursuing women for a myriad of reasons as well, The post metoo environment has caused men to retreat from the dating scene for mere self preservation. Porn is a huge benifactor to low birth rates as well, Its safer and easier than risking it all in the dating and marriage scene in the west. Porn itself is also and obviously a symptom of feminism, Ironically most feminist hate porn as well as traditional conservatives. . . . Just a little irony there. What do you think? Please point out any fallacies in my hypothesis.

  • CON

    This is rape culture," again,, a culture that does not...

    Modern Feminism

    If I'm the problem, then it sounds like truth is the problem. The reason they make .77 cents for every dollar a man makes, is because not as many women are in the work force as men, simply because they are full time mothers, which that in itself is a very tough job, as well as the ones who live off of men who work full time or more, and simply choose to sit around and live an easy life, or even the ones who collect welfare and child support and work the system like a blood sucking leech to make ends meets. You know, the ones that make me scared to get married for fear of losing half of what i own and in the process losing much of the money that i work for. We've never had a woman president because they simply are not good enough as politicians to acquire the position, not the fact that they are a woman, it's the fact that they are not qualified for the job. Same thing for congress and senate, its because they don't meet the requirements necessary to win the job. It has nothing to do with their gender. Nobody hates on women or treats them in such a way that they wouldn't vote for them, it's that less women run, and the ones who do obviously do not cut it. That is not inequality, that is people voting for the superior candidate, the fact that women do get positions in senate and congress means they probably did beat some men because they are more qualified than the men who ran. As for my rebuttal to your second argument: it doesn't exist. Those television advertisements are makeup companies and clothing company's trying to get their product out there for people to buy, it's a little word known as, "advertisement" and it is in no way attempting to objectify women, if that is how you choose to interpret it, than that is you and your self-confidence. Simple over thinking and low self esteem and more than likely, young age, are the biggest culprits at fault here to blame for your interpretation. As for a 12 year old wearing yoga pants, that is an issue with their parents, parents should not let their daughters walk around dressed like that if they are at all concerned about that, also, the only 50 year old men that i have heard about checking out under aged girls are perverts who deserve, if not already are, in prison. I'm sorry for you and your sisters troubles, but again, that has to do with your age and low self esteem, maybe it was your parents or the way you were raised, or even another issue i don't know about, but it most likely was you at fault for that. "It is the fight to be treated with respect," you mean, disregarding the copious amounts of respect they already have, right? Please keep in mind that the definition of rape is, "unlawful sexual intercourse or any other sexual penetration of the vagina, anus, or mouth of another person, with or without force, by a sex organ, other body part or foreign object, without the consent of the victim." So simple comments, or whistling or whatever, is not rape, and in a lot of cases, not signaling rape, granted the few exceptions to that when a pervert or mentally ill person or, like you and me both stated, intoxicated individuals is trying for that. Actual rape is committed by a criminal, typically in a bad place at a bad time, every man i know would stop a rape and send the guy committing it (if it was a guy) to hell. Men who whistle or say things like that are typically immature and typically don't know the right way to get to know a woman, the oppression you feel is most definitely not the oppression that you face, it is the oppression that you imagine. As for a casual greeting on the street, it really could be a member of the community saying hello, or someone who is fairly extroverted looking to make conversation to trying to interact with the environment and the people in it. Again, feminism is a fight against imaginary oppression. "This is rape culture," again,, a culture that does not exist. Women do have more emotions than men, that is where biology trumps ideology. The fact that women have menstrual cycles and more hormones. I wouldn't quite call it crazy, it is science, science that is the contradiction of everything you just wrote about the word hysterical, notice how you said that it does not happen anymore (not hysterectomy's, women being called insane and being forced to have one) it doesn't happen anymore, because science has developed and we know that the belief is illogical. Notice how you said it used to happen in the 19th century, before we had something known as, "women's suffrage." Science has developed and we no know that is not true. Video games that rape? you mean the illicit ones that are banned? or the ones that don't exist? If there is a video game that depicts rape or sex or something, it most likely is for the story line and is a part of a characters personality, no one is advising or condoning rape, and no one is thinking about committing it or taking part in a rape. Courts that protect rapists? It takes a real vivid imagination for someone to think a man accused of rape has any chance at making it through the legal system without being in jail or prison, including men who get falsely accused of rap, then you truly have never seen a real life involving a man on trial for rape. What she was wearing, can be relevant, in some situations, rapists are the lowest form of life, in prison they get punished for what they did both legally and physically by other prisoners, what they get in prison is what they deserve. I would like to prod something from another angle, men getting raped. It happens, men get raped by women, especially under aged guys getting raped by a woman, or by another man. Men do get raped too, and it does just as much damage to them mentally as it does women, rape is not gender specific. Like i pointed out in last paragraph, men who go to prison for rape, regardless of if they did it or not, get raped. They get the living daylights beaten out of them, they have to forever register as a sex offender, again, regardless of if they did it or not. The catholic priest touching little boy joke didn't come from no where, in fact there is some truth to that. It's not specific to priests either, it happens in a lot of places. When men get raped by women, they are told they are strange/gay and that they should have liked it. Whats that? That never happens? The recent case of molly Shattuck says other wise. In fact this proves my point, that women are favored when it comes to legal issues, because she is only spending 48 weekends in jail for this disgusting act. No, not weeks, weekends. If we were to flip this situation around, and a guy were to preform an illegal sex act on a girl like this, then he would be serving way more time in prison. Which brings me to the point that, women get easier sentences and men will always receive a harsher punishment for the same crime. Another thing i would like to discuss would be false rape accusations. They happen, a lot. I personally know a few different guys who got in trouble off of a simple accusation and were, in fact, held guilty until proven innocent. This is becoming a huge issue, it completely screws them over, for a long time. First, they go through their sentence in jail or prison, with people thinking they actually did it, so naturally, they get treated like someone who did it. Again, look up or watch a documentary or ask someone who has seen it, you will find all you need to know and more. Then, they have to get out of jail and everyone around them thinks that about them, plus they have to be registered. All because some girl got a little pissed off and wanted something awful to happen to him, or whatever their reason was. It ruins lives, and it is overlooked, a lot. Go ahead and tell me that there is a good reason for it to happen, because there is no logical reason for a man who did not commit rape to go to jail for rape. I enjoyed your arguments, and hope to see another, good luck next round.

    • https://www.debate.org/debates/Modern-Feminism/3/
    • score
      BM25 score: 15.43
      feminism: 15.43
      conclusion: 11.41 (boost 1.50, idf 5.97, tfNorm 1.27)
      premises: 2.17 (idf 5.90, tfNorm 0.37)
      sourceText: 1.85 (boost 0.20, idf 4.68, tfNorm 1.98)
  • CON

    I'm talking about how a large is amount of feminist are...

    feminism

    I'm talking about how a large is amount of feminist are attacking men like for example hepeating, hep eating, man spreading, toxic masculinity. but also you say you notice what im talking about then start talking about a diffent thing, so could you also explain your veiws a bit more?

  • CON

    men have a much high skid rate and assault charges but...

    feminism

    honestly if any ones oppressed its men the British board laugh at the idea of talking about men's problem. feminist clothing is every were but one Mra peace of clothing and they go to boycott. men have a much high skid rate and assault charges but all we hear about is women's harassment and sexual assault(which is bad but the point still stands). women have several legal rights over children than men tell me. in what ways are women oppressed

  • CON

    Extend.

    Feminism

    Extend.