Pro vs. con view
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PRO

  • PRO

    Despite all this, they comprise less than 15% of...

    Resolved: Modern American Feminism is Both Correct and Needed

    Modern American feminism (3rd/quasi-4th wave fem.) is correct: Women in the West continue to, by-and-large, be treated like second class citizens. Women make up more than half of the American population. They earn 60% of undergraduate degrees, and 60% of Masters degrees, 47% of law degrees, 48% of medical degrees, and 59% of the college-educated, entry-level workforce. Despite all this, they comprise less than 15% of executive offices, 8.1% of top-earners, 20% of women in congress. Despite making up more than 45% of associates in the legal field, only 15% of equity partners are women. This is to say nothing of the even more substantial gap present in the lives of coloured women in the United States, which is itself a major focus of contemporary, intersectional feminism. (1) Women also continue to lack agency over bodies - aside from momentous beauty standards (and the enduring sentiment that a woman's beauty is her only true asset), there is the ongoing war against the female libido (slut-shaming, attire standardization, etc.), and the persisting anti-abortion movement. These issues alone should illustrate the sustained relevance of feminism in America. (1) https://www.americanprogress.org...

  • PRO

    IF, corporations can get away with paying women less for...

    Third-wave feminism is against gender equity

    We have all heard from the left about how, feminism is all about gender equality and gender equity. This definition that the left clings to is CORRECT....if we were still living in the 1950s. The third wave feminist movement has moved on from the basic principle that have guided the first and second waves. It has rather become a mean, spiteful, and man hating philosophy based off on not building up women but tearing down men. Not only do we see the replacement of peaceful protests with violet demonstrations such as the attack on women during Life-day. We currently see the result of such a transition in polls and figures done by many institutes. Women are abandoning feminism at an alarming rate not because of their supposed sudden transformation into racist and sexist bigots. These polls asked women if they supported gender equality and if they supported the third wave feminist movement. 85% of people when asked in the polls said that they support gender equality HOWEVER, only 18% of people said that they supported the third wave feminist movement. If, feminism in truly about equity as they claim, WHY wouldn't these people give the same answer to both poll questions. These polls are not done by some unreliable alt-right sources such as Breitbart. These polls are done by Vox, Huffington Post, CNN, etc. Modern day feminism is hated so much because they say one thing but, do another. My opponent might mention that women wouldn't want to be labeled as a feminist. In which my response is why and how did feminism get such a bad reputation if it wasn't for their actions and beliefs. Todays feminists are hypocrites in every sense o the word. My opponent would likely attempt to frame these debate as a force of good vs evil, equality vs oppression, etc. However, this is simply not the case as we see multiple deliberately misleading lies and actions done by third-wave feminism in an attempt to attack men and other women dissenters. We see their championship of the debunked gender pay-gap statistic and their completely unproven "1 in 4" rape culture data. Their magical concept of the modern day patriarchy conspiracy theories which deprives young women of the chance to improve on their failures and succeed in life. Feminism tells everyone that women are some oppressed class in America and demand laws to help themselves and punish all those who disagree with their agenda. Feminists lobbies the government for more affirmative action policies at college campuses and high-income workplaces. In reality, women have 2 to 1 advantage over men when applying for STEM jobs and are graduating college with more bachelors, masters and PHDs at a much more higher rate that their male counterparts. We see them demanding that women be entered into more STEM fields when, in reality women tend to avoid this type of expertise. The more developed a country is, the less percentage of women are willing to find a STEM job. Women tend to dominate fields of the arts and humanities not because there is some evil cult of straight white men secretly hypnotizing the women to be forced into homemaker positions but because of choice. This lack of women in the STEM field, combined with women's tendency to take more vacations, work less hours LEADS to the supposed "gender wage gap". My opponent may perhaps mention gender stereotypes and how they affect women's choices however, my opponent must explain why the evil patriarchy would discourage women from physics BUT not veterinary sciences. The supposed "wage gap" couldn't even be called a wage gap, the statistic is calculated when you take the average annual income and do basic division. If you look by the hour for the same job at the same location, BOTH genders are equal in pay. Simple economics can debunk this whole patriarchy and gender pay-gap argument. IF, corporations can get away with paying women less for equal amounts of work and labor, then why wouldn't companies just fire all their male employees and exclusively hire women. ALL companies want to maximize income and profit, that is the nature of capitalism. Perhaps you may note that sexism would prevent companies from hiring women however even that is not the case. The 1800s were a time of gender inequity but that did not stop companies from hiring exclusively women in sweatshops and other factories. This modern-day movement cares little of fairness or equality of opportunity but focuses completely on equality of outcome. Now, my opponent might protest citing arguments about how these feminists are just "militant" feminists but, unfortunately that is not the case. The feminist leadership and figures around the world openly support these lies and advocate attacks on males. People like Gloria Steinem are the new leaders and faces of this movement. While feminism itself is an ideology, third wave feminism is classified as a movement. A movement is best defined by it's followers. To attack men and delegitimize their status in society to bring about a "equality of outcome" does not bring about social progress but reverse sexism. http://www.huffingtonpost.com... http://www.pbs.org... http://www.news.cornell.edu... https://www.usnews.com... http://www.dailytexanonline.com... http://sundial.csun.edu... https://www.usnews.com... https://www.usatoday.com... http://www.washingtonexaminer.com...

  • PRO

    3) 2. ... 7. http://web.archive.org... 8....

    3rd wave feminism has made notable progress for civil rights

    "Third Wave feminism and Civil Rights" A. - What is the Third Wave: In order to fully examine the impact of Third Wave feminism on the civil rights struggles of the last few decades, two things must be done. - Identifying the ideas of the movement. - Demonstrating an impact of those ideas. I will first seek to outline a few of the more universal ideals of third wave feminism, and explore their roots, then I will attempt to show the impact those cultural movements have fueled. It does bear mentioning that 3rd wave feminism is still a very young idea system, and as such is still very fluid and changing as more social concerns and injustices come to light. "In contrast to those voices (2nd wave feminist thinkers), thirdR08;wavers do not completely reject the agenda of secondR08;wave feminism (Heywood 2006a, 139); they simply seek to rid feminist practice of its perceived ideological rigidity." (1) It evolved from many long-established schools of thought which were part of the discourse of the 2nd wave feminist movement. "Feminism is itself problematic, because the theories that inform it are heterogenous (p.25). (8) Like any logical divergence from an academic school of thought, the evolution of feminist theory is an entirely natural progression of a social, cultural movement, and as such, the schools of thought share many similarities, just as they share differences. Additionally, many "modern" (still living) feminists hold beliefs from both 2nd and 3rd wave feminist theories. "Within the body of third wave feminist thinking, there exists strains and influences of other feminist epistemologies, including standpoint theory, queer theory, postmodernist, poststructuralist feminist thought and anti-essentialism." (8) There are still several "Ideals" which are selective to what is defined as 3rd wave feminism, which I will highlight below. I. - The Ideas of Third Wave Feminism: To best understand the nuances of Third Wave feminism, one must understand how it differs from the ideas which helped shape it. "Additionally, and perhaps because of the significant gains made by (1st and second wave) feminism, young women today experience sexism, racism, homophobia, and classism that is more underground, more insidious, and much more difficult to pinpoint than its previous incarnations. " (8) I will now highlight just three of the many facets of the movement. 1. Sex positivism: 2nd wave feminist thinking tended to err against pornography as detrimental and exploitative to women. Third wave feminists tend to subscribe to the belief that nudity and nude expression, even in pornography, can be empowering to women, so long as it is not exploitative. (2) There are many "3rd" wave feminists who do not share this ideal, but still subscribe to other ideas of 3rd wave feminism. However, sex positivity/positivism is widely practiced by 3rd wave feminists. This difference was analyzed well by Gayle Rubin (Rubin, 1984). To save space, the crux of the analysis can be found in the wiki source below. (3) 2. Transfeminism - transexual, transgender, gender-queer acceptance/advocacy: One stark contrast between previous feminist schools of thought and that of third-wave feminism, is the acceptance and advocacy of transgender and transsexual individuals, as well as gender-queer individuals. 2nd wave feminism was not wholly accepting of LGBTQ individuals who were female, nor was the movement overly interested in championing LGBTQ advocacy, this caused several splinter groups to form during the early stages of the 2nd wave. These groups would contribute to the formation of a more accepting and comprehensive third wave feminist viewpoint. 2nd wave feminism was not accepting of the LGBTQ movement, or those female individuals who were not hetero-normative or binary. (4) 3rd wave feminism takes a sharp divergence from this, and actively champions LGBTQ equality and acceptance. "This way of ordering the world is especially difficult for a generation that has grown up transgender, bisexual, interracial, and knowing and loving people who are racist, sexist, and otherwise afflicted. (Walker 2006b, 22)" (5) 3. Education and dialogue - Third Wave Feminism takes an active role in encouraging discourse within and outside of the various feminist communities. "Outreach education to trans youth has become an increasingly important endeavor as well." Some differences are categorized in this source under Education as a "Right to be Myself". (7) 3rd wave feminism has ushered in several organizations which focus on sexual education and health for women. - WHAM! - Voice - Fearless -Womanist -Students Organizing Students - FURY -YELL (8) B. - What has Third wave feminism done for civil rights: 1. Sex Positivity - "Moral authorities throughout Western history have shaped how we as a society view sex, labeling it as sinful and indecent..." (10) The sex positive aspect of third wave feminism has resulted in the mellinial generation becoming the most accepting of other sexual orientations and genders. "The surprisingly detailed OkCupid dating insights data suggests that over 34% of young men and women have either had a same-sex encounter or would like to " an increase that dovetails nicely with the 81% of people under 30 who now support gay marriage." (11) "A recent survey conducted by University College London found that we (millennials) in general have a broader sexual repertoire, and are more likely to be satisfied with our sex lives than older people. We're less judgmental of kink, and less likely to stigmatize around sex." (10) Of course, this cannot be attributed entirely to third wave feminism, as it is part of the greater struggle for civil rights, however this proves third wave feminism espouses ideas which have had a direct impact on civil rights. 2. Transgender Acceptance/ voice - Transgender identity was seldom talked about prior to the 1990s, but with the rise of gender equality discourse, and a greater examination of what it means to identify as male or female, these issues have come to the forefront. Here are examples of how third wave feminism resulted in the propagation of this civil rights discourse. "Enter jammer girl. A jammer girl is defined as a pre-adolescent or adolescent girl whose identity is not based on physical appearance and passivity, but on health and social activism." (12) Transgender, transsexual, lesbian and gender queer individuals now have a voice in the movement, bringing their issues to light. "thirdR08;wave feminism rejects grand narratives for a feminism that operates as a hermeneutics of critique within a wide array of discursive locations, and replaces attempts at unity with a dynamic and welcoming politics of coalition." (9) "The "grrls" of the third wave have stepped onto the stage as strong and empowered, eschewing victimization and defining feminine beauty for themselves as subjects, not as objects of a sexist patriarchy" (13) There are organizations now funding efforts to bring these civil rights issues more awareness "The RHJI has supported over 50 young women and trans youth-led groups across the country and their diverse range of strategies and tactics." (13) 3. A small list of achievements. 1994: The Gender Equity in Education Act (14) 2000: CBS paid $8 million to settle a sex discrimination lawsuit. 2007: The Gender Equality Duty of the Equality Act 2006 came into effect in the UK. 2013: The first woman to bring a gender discrimination lawsuit in China SOURCES: 1. http://www.jstor.org... 2. Wolf, Naomi. Feminist Fatale: a reply to Camille Paglia. The New Republic. March 16, 1992 3. http://en.wikipedia.org... 4. http://beingfeministblog.wordpress.com... 5. http://www.jstor.org... 6. A. Mackinnon, Catharine. (1991). "Toward A Feminist Theory of the State." Harvard University press. 7. http://web.archive.org... 8. http://pi.library.yorku.ca... 9. http://web.archive.org... 10. http://www.huffingtonpost.com... 11. http://urbanfifth.com... 12. http://school.credoreference.com... 13. http://www.thirdwavefoundation.org... 14. http://www2.ed.gov...

  • PRO

    I would argue the core of feminism is to organize in...

    Feminism is inherently bigoted.

    I would argue the core of feminism is to organize in support of women's rights and interests. No one denies that such areas exist where that is valid, but if you only care about one in a subset of two those will not be equal. That does not mean equality, unless it is your view that only women suffer from gendered problems. If we use America as an example, the male- to female suicide rate is at least 3-1 (1), two thirds of the homeless are males (2), 90% of work related deaths (3) and 93% o prisoners (4) are males. These problems are not seen as gendered, despite obviously being such, because they benefit the right sex. I'm not blaming feminists for these problems, I'm saying their lack of empathy becomes visible by their complete lack of interest in them. I was drafted, talk about objectification. Once again, my argument is not that women are privileged, these are just examples that feminists do not care about. The only laws that discriminate based on sex are instituted by feminists. Duluth policies created by feminists seem designed to ignore men being abused. The sitting foreign minister of America has the audacity to say that women are the primary victims of war, because they lose their husbands, sons and fathers in war. (5) Could you imagine the reaction if Obama had came out and said men were the primary victims of breast cancer, since they might miss their relatives? Feminism is not about equality, it never has. Could you think of one onerous situation where women wanted the obligation and the right, and not just the right? 1: https://en.wikipedia.org... 2: http://www.endhomelessness.org... 3: https://en.wikipedia.org... 4: http://www.bop.gov... 5: https://en.wikiquote.org...

  • PRO

    But I somehow find them interconnected, if not the same....

    Feminism is cancer of contemporary society

    I'm really grateful to you for explaining me the "shades" of the same notion. But I somehow find them interconnected, if not the same. They are as synonimous, as irony and sarcasm are. The latter is an "upgraded" version of the first one. So basically, you're saying, that there are soft men-haters, mid men-haters and hardcore men-haters. Well yes, women were considered to be mistreated in the past, but are they now? Sure, there are countries in the world, that have certain traditions towards women, and they're not going to accept western gender agenda, but what about the rest? Women have all the rights to occupy prestigious positions (google Zaha Hadid, Theresa May, Patty Jenkins) , to earn a decent paycheck (maybe less than men, but still decent enough to live a life, and if it's not enough, then how much is enough?), not to raise children or give birth at all (for example, like in Denmark). But it turns out, that that's not enough. That's why I'm saying, that the goal was surpassed, there is nowhere to move on. Or is it? Should we have mixed-sex football teams? Man vs Woman MMA fights (actually, there is such thing as WWE, and there women sometimes fight men, google it too)? Women soldiers, that would lay their bodies on the battlefield, defending their country? Maybe we should have, but that's arguable. Now, rape. Yes, men do sexualise women, especially when women wear revealing clothes, which is now a common thing with most women. But that doesn't mean, that every man is capable of doing that. Plus nowadays cases of false rape accusation are gaining numbers. Only in these cases men are always on the losers' side, and most of the time men should do a spell in prison for something, they've never commited. The best part of these "rapists" are virgin, by the way. How cool is that? Does it mean I could be put in jail for rape too, though I've never had sex with a woman? I guess, this is a ture justice and equality according to feminists. "But I somehow find them interconnected, if not the same. They are as synonimous, as irony and sarcasm are. The latter is an "upgraded" version of the first one. So basically, you're saying, that there are soft men-haters, mid men-haters and hardcore men-haters. Well yes, women were considered to be mistreated in the past, but are they now? Sure, there are countries in the world, that have certain traditions towards women, and they're not going to accept western gender agenda, but what about the rest? Women have all the rights to occupy prestigious positions (google Zaha Hadid, Theresa May, Patty Jenkins) , to earn a decent paycheck (maybe less than men, but still decent enough to live a life, and if it's not enough, then how much is enough?), not to raise children or give birth at all (for example, like in Denmark). But it turns out, that that's not enough. That's why I'm saying, that the goal was surpassed, there is nowhere to move on. Or is it? Should we have mixed-sex football teams? Man vs Woman MMA fights (actually, there is such thing as WWE, and there women sometimes fight men, google it too)? Women soldiers, that would lay their bodies on the battlefield, defending their country? Maybe we should have, but that's arguable. Now, rape. Yes, men do sexualise women, especially when women wear revealing clothes, which is now a common thing with most women. But that doesn't mean, that every man is capable of doing that. Plus nowadays cases of false rape accusation are gaining numbers. Only in these cases men are always on the losers' side, and most of the time men should do a spell in prison for something, they've never commited. The best part of these "rapists" are virgin, by the way. How cool is that? Does it mean I could be put in jail for rape too, though I've never had sex with a woman? I guess, this is a ture justice and equality according to feminists. "Women have all the rights to occupy prestigious positions (google Zaha Hadid, Theresa May, Patty Jenkins) , to earn a decent paycheck (maybe less than men, but still decent enough to live a life, and if it's not enough, then how much is enough?), not to raise children or give birth at all (for example, like in Denmark). But it turns out, that that's not enough. That's why I'm saying, that the goal was surpassed, there is nowhere to move on. Or is it? Should we have mixed-sex football teams? Man vs Woman MMA fights (actually, there is such thing as WWE, and there women sometimes fight men, google it too)? Women soldiers, that would lay their bodies on the battlefield, defending their country? Maybe we should have, but that's arguable. Now, rape. Yes, men do sexualise women, especially when women wear revealing clothes, which is now a common thing with most women. But that doesn't mean, that every man is capable of doing that. Plus nowadays cases of false rape accusation are gaining numbers. Only in these cases men are always on the losers' side, and most of the time men should do a spell in prison for something, they've never commited. The best part of these "rapists" are virgin, by the way. How cool is that? Does it mean I could be put in jail for rape too, though I've never had sex with a woman? I guess, this is a ture justice and equality according to feminists. "Feminism also seeks to bring down all those patriarchal opinions that men should constantly prove their masculinity and ever shed a tear". But who said, that men cannot and shouldn't shed a tear? And what do you mean by "constantly prove their masculinity"? But this is how it actually works in the nature. The strongest one wins. Men are taught to be strong, in order to be able to keep family in tact. Let's take another perspective. Ask women, wether they would choose from two absolutely the same men, but one of them is stronger than the other, the weaker one. The thing is, they would not do that, because preference falls upon the stongest one, apparently. And it's absolutely normal, as this is in our instincts. We tend to stay close to the strongest. Now, feminism is trying to demolish this tendency. But who would benefit from it? I assume, no one, neither men, nor women. All I'm saying is that feminism has nothing to do with the notion of equality. It's all vice-versa. It deals too much damage to contemporary society, by imposing even more injustices and inequalities, than it should get rid of.

  • PRO

    I am not saying that all feminists are all sexists, I am...

    Feminism more like sexism or more like (Female supremacy).

    This isn't refuting my argument at all in the slightest. No, I understand the idea of Feminism I just stated Feminism is not truly for equality because it deals with the problems of only one of the sexes, females. I am not saying that all feminists are all sexists, I am saying if they truly believe in equality and both problems of the sexes should be addressed equally, they are wrongly labeling themselves. The only way you can argue feminism is truly for equality is that it someway addresses both problems of the sexes EQUALLY. Also Con would have to prove feminists mostly (radical) feminists are not hell bent on female superiority and men are demons.

  • PRO

    Personally, I am in favor of abortion in very particular...

    Feminism is morally good

    I will begin by stating that feminism does not necessarily include abortion among it's principles. Refer, for example, to the Feminists for Life NGO [1]. I was aiming for a debate focused on gender equality and civil rights, not on the particular issue of abortion, so I no longer see a chance for a debate to develop here. Personally, I am in favor of abortion in very particular cases, but I am not ready to debate it under the simple "abortion is morally good" premise. I would gladly debate you on abortion, but a totally different set of considerations has to be adopted forehand. I recommend to drop this debate and I ask voters to declare a tie; the reason being that my debate was taken out of context into something I was not intending to debate. [1] http://www.feministsforlife.org...

  • PRO

    This includes seeking to establish equal opportunities...

    The feminism movement should not be impeded by Bronze Age texts

    I hope that the resolution is clear enough, but, for the record: To accept the debate, Con will agree to work with the following definitions: Feminism is a collection of movements and ideologies that share a common goal: to define, establish, and achieve equal political, economic, cultural, personal, and social rights for women. This includes seeking to establish equal opportunities for women in education and employment. (a Feminist is one who supports this overall movement) Impede: delay or prevent (someone or something) by obstructing them; hinder. Con may opt to use round 1 for acceptance, or may just get started. BOP is shared. Con will argue that Feminism should be impeded by Bronze Age texts, such as some parts of the Bible. I guess I'm hoping that nobody accepts, but I'm thinking that some bible literalist might take this challenge on!

  • PRO

    Men want equal treatment when victims of domestic...

    Feminism fights to harm men.

    http://www.glennsacks.com... http://web.archive.org... http://web.archive.org... http://www.bbc.co.uk... http://londonfeministnetwork.org.uk... http://www.bbc.co.uk... http://www.thisislondon.co.uk... http://pubpages.unh.edu... http://i.imgur.com... http://www.law.fsu.edu... http://www.firstpost.com... http://www.jpost.com... http://rinow.org... http://www.weeklystandard.com... http://www.legislature.mi.gov... Father"s rights group want shared parenting (equal custody) to be the default if both parents want custody and neither parent is unfit. They feel that men should not be punished for being men, and that women should not be awarded custody to their kids simply for being women. Currently women are awarded primary custody almost all the time, even if the husband was the stay-at-home Dad and the woman was the breadwinner. Feminists fought against this. You can read NOW"s own statement here. Also note their usage of anti-male lies, i.e. "fathers are abusive, don"t give them custody." That is from 1997, but still remains valid today. Men want protection against false rape allegations. They feel that a man"s life should not be ruined simply on the allegation of a woman who may be a vindictive liar. Currently, a woman can accuse a man of rape for no reason, and the man"s name is splashed in the paper and his life is ruined. So, they fought for laws granting men anonymity until charged with the crime of rape"not convicted, just charged. Feminists fought against this, causing it to fail. Also see here, the London Feminist Network campaigning to defeat the proposal. "The London Feminist Network is a campaigning organisation uniting London based feminist groups and individuals in activism." Men want an end to the justice system favouring women simply because they are women, and giving men harsher sentences simply because they are men. Feminists fought against this, arguing that no woman should be sent to jail, even women who had murdered multiple people. Men want equal treatment when victims of domestic violence, and to not be arrested for the crime of "being male" under primary aggressor policies. Feminists fought against this by trying to suppress evidence showing that half of domestic violence is done by women, by threatening the researchers with bomb threats, death threats, etc. Modern, younger feminists are doing it as well. And sadly, they were successful in this effort of propaganda. For decades, and continuing today, violent men are (rightfully) convicted and punished by the state, while violent women are left to freely terrorize and harm their partners. The feminist definition of domestic violence has skewed arrest and prosecution philosophies, resulting primarily in having only male batterers criminally pursued. Men want female rapists to be arrested, charged, and convicted with rape. In Western countries, women are rarely punished when raping men, due to the biased legal system. In some countries, women cannot be punished when raping men, since rape is defined as a male-perpetrated crime. Feminists fought against this in India, arguing that "there is a physicality [in] rape" and that it would make things "more complicated for judges." Feminists fought against this in Israel, claiming that changing the law would result in men filing false rape claims. Men don"t want to be thrown in jail because they lost their jobs and temporarily cannot pay child support. Feminists fought against this, trying to lower the amount to $5000 before a man is guilty of a felony for not paying child support. If a man loses a decent-paying job, he will now be a felon, go to jail, lose his right to vote, AND be unable to find future jobs"if he cannot regain an equal-paying job within a few months. Men want equal economic support and help from the government. When the recession hit, male-dominated fields like construction lost millions of jobs, while female-fields like education and healthcare gained jobs. So the government proposed an economic stimulus for those fields. Feminists successfully fought against this, arguing that it was discrimination to support men, and caused the government to give money to women who didn"t deserve it. Hundreds of professional feminists complained against the "sexism" of helping men (who had lost jobs) and not women (who had gained jobs). A representative of the Michigan National Organization for Women testified in opposition to the Revocation of Paternity Act, which stopped the old law which stated that if a woman was married and cheated on her husband, the resulting child is considered to be legally the husband"s and the biological father had no legal rights to fight for custody or parenting time with his biological child. As you can see, the claim that feminism fight for men"s rights is a blatant lie. Don"t believe any feminists that say that. Feminists fight for women"s rights. That is a good thing. Feminists also are happy to harm men"s rights, as shown above. That is a bad thing. Feminism is about female privilege, not equality. Some may argue that these cases of feminists harming men is not "representative" of feminism. I ask you: Are there any cases of feminists helping men? No. Yet, there are many cases of feminists harming men. This provides more evidence than needed. Feminism has changed, it is a movement hidden behind a facade. I admit that there are feminists that want true equality, but most feminists hide behind that and fight to harm men instead of doing what feminists should do. (help them if the women have it better) This shows that most feminists fight to harm men.

CON

  • CON

    That's not cool. ... Gender injustice is far from...

    Modern Feminism Is Pointless

    1) But women aren't doing that currently, and that's unfortunate. I don't wish for all those lazy helpless women to define my entire gender, though. 2) People care about breast cancer and "save the boobies" because breasts are mystical, pretty, valuable in our society. That's why breast cancer gets more attention than other "unsexy" cancers. 3) Two different kinds of rape. Random acts of sexual assault by criminal strangers tends to be clothes that's easy to remove, and rape at home by a non-stranger (the majority of cases) isn't scathed by unglamorous hoodies and pajamas. Society doesn't explicitly tolerate rape, and I never meant to suggest that, but it can excuse cases and make them out to be not a big deal. For example, if a girl is a slut, it's culturally assumed that "she wanted it" and the sexual assault is therefore not as big of a deal. It's unfair. As I said, women get raped more in countries where they're in veiled burqas rather than bikinis--clothes don't provoke rape--but they make ALL the difference in whether a rape is considered excused, justified, or enabled. Also, girls are told not to wear revealing clothes because they "don't help in a rape situation." If you're concerned about stranger rapes, though, that link shows that rapists like grabbable ponytails. So why is a party girl in a short skirt causing more of a fuss than a late-night jogger in easy-to-pull-down overalls and a ponytail? Because of cultural sex-negative mindsets regarding sluts. 4) If I act extremely hungry, that doesn't mean you can shove food down my throat. Likewise, if I'm flirty and slutted up, that could be interpreted as an OK sign to look and flirt. But that doesn't give anyone the right to violate my bodily autonomy or make me uncomfortable. Even if I'm a slut, sluts have feelings; we're thinking beings. That's a message society needs in the public discourse, because the mindset of "consent to look can be consent to anything" is toxic and leads to assaults and sexual harassment. That's not cool. 5) I wasn't quite bringing up sex either. Rather, I was saying that sex-negative mindsets hurt female victims of rape cases, and that certain societal attitudes are also hurtful to male victims of rape. While I'm on this subject, I want to stress that neither form of sexism is inherently worse. They're just different. 6) Oh, okay. That's understandable. Well, it IS a women's liberation movement, so it would make sense that they'd tackle issues that negatively impact women. Rape to men is worth focus, as I mentioned earlier, but if feminism is focusing on rape to men, that's just a fortunate bonus, not a duty. 7) Yeah, my views are pretty radical. But the "appeal to tradition" fallacy just falls flat on its face--just because it's existed for a long time, how does that make modesty standards inherently good? Some cultures across the world, such as the Nuba, Surma, and Yawalapiti tribes, are often naked. There's nothing wrong with that; there's nothing shameful about the human body. 8) Well, feminism IS a women's liberation movement. It only makes sense that they'd tackle issues that are negatively impacting them. It's not right that feminists should see men as demonized oppressors; men are civilized members of society, and they're not the only ones perpetuating anti-woman mindsets. From my experience, the everyday women who calls herself a feminist is quick to blame things on men, but the scholarly feminists blame things on societal attitudes and gender roles, which is more accurate. It's not fair to blame things on men alone, so I think we should also start discussing society's attitudes and gender roles as the demons. Does there need to be a national movement? I suppose. It's pointless to tackle the little tangible things, like Barbie dolls or Goldie Blox, when there are broad mindsets against women. For example, it's common that men are portrayed as the "default" and that women are a token variation, that stuff regarding men is the mainstream and women's stuff is segregated off as "chick stuff." Though any reasonable person will say that men and women are equals, few (if any) dare to claim that femininity is masculinity's equal. Girls who do guy stuff are cool, whereas girly stuff is laughable on a guy--implying that femininity is weak and less valuable. But nonetheless, it doesn't matter who's MORE oppressed by gender injustices. We just need to focus on the fact that they unfairly exist. So feminism could be a great tool to dissolve the issue of women being viewed differently. Also, "you have to earn it." That argument is always, always brought up against sluts. We're all born with the human right to respect, so demanding a woman to conform to a limiting set of archaic sex-negative ideals is just cruel. Society has a terrible idea that sluts aren't worthy of earning respect, and that's awful and needs to be fixed. Are there issues with some modern feminists? Yeah. I'm not denying that. Feminism might be jacked up in current practice, but it's still important in philosophy. Same with men's rights activism--there are some visibly notorious members, but it's still necessary to dissolve men's injustices. Gender injustice is far from resolved, so we just need to listen, care, and fight alongside each other.

  • CON

    All this "rape prevention" advice falls flat on its face...

    Modern Feminism Is Pointless

    Just to clarify: I identify myself as a gender-egalitarian, which means I believe that men and women (and people of non-standard genders!) should be viewed on the same level, as people foremost, with gender as just another aspect of someone like height or eye color. I believe gender should not be used to define, categorize, limit, or repress. I believe in feminism as a women's liberation movement is still necessary. It's common that men are portrayed as the "default" and that women are a token variation, that stuff regarding men is the mainstream and women's stuff is segregated off as "chick stuff." Though any reasonable person will say that men and women are equals, few (if any) dare to claim that femininity is masculinity's equal. But nonetheless, it doesn't matter who's more oppressed by gender injustices. We just need to focus on the fact that they unfairly exist. So feminism could be a great tool to dissolve the issue of women being viewed differently. Onto your points: 1) That's totally unfair that women can get away with things solely for being women. It's gender roles--implying that a woman is innocent and weak, saying that she couldn't possibly hurt someone and that hurting a woman is intolerable. Those are terrible mindsets that limit women's potential, and while some sects of feminism unfortunately perpetuate this (which just makes the genders further imbalanced), I think responsible feminism should pave the path to women being treated the same as men, even if it means that things will be tough. 2) Onto rape. People tend to think of rape as a stranger jumping out of the bushes to assault a revealingly dressed woman. Wrong, wrong, wrongity wrong. 73% of rapes were committed by a non-stranger, and 50% of them occurred at home.[1] From anecdotal EMT experience, those victims were in sweatpants, yoga pants, hoodies, even footie pajamas with Elmo on them. All this "rape prevention" advice falls flat on its face when you realize that the perpetrators were boyfriends, stepdads, uncles, etc. If you're talking about stranger rape discourse, you're also wrong about revealing clothes causing rape! http://www.ripleycounty.com... According to the Ripley County Sheriff's Department, rapists don't look for revealing clothes. They look for passiveness, easy-to-remove clothes (such as overalls--they cut the straps off easily). Also, rapes occur more in countries where women wear veiled burqas than where they're strutting around in bikinis. Yet people say revealing clothes cause rape. It's a horrible anti-woman mindset, claiming that consent to look at a woman is also consent to do more than look. It's sex-negative, claiming that a woman's sexiness negates her right to respectable personhood. That's far from the truth. She's still a thinking human being with feelings and bodily autonomy; consent to look is not consent to touch. You have no more right to ravish a slut's body than to a woman in baggy sweatpants. Men aren't animals; they're civilized members of society. I get turned on by toned biceps and abs, but I don't go around ravishing buff strangers. Why? Because I have a smidge of human decency. Everyone has the potential for that same self restraint, so it wasn't the victim acting a certain way--it was the fault of a jerk. Men are people who make decisions. Let's stop talking about "he couldn't stop himself" and start talking about "he decided not to stop." Men deserve that dignity, and the responsibility that comes with it. By framing their actions as a force of nature, you're excusing them. So, women can't "take responsibility" for the actions of someone else that they didn't ask for. They did not provoke it; it was the societal attitudes and gender roles that excused the rapist's acts, and it's time to take a stand against such unfair cruelty. Sure, if my rack and butt are hanging out, I may certainly want to bang. Come flirt with me. But when you take it as a given, acting like horniness is consent to everyone and you don't need to ask, and going ahead and banging me without me even speaking up, that's a violation. I didn't consent to be in that position. If I say I'm hungry, that doesn't mean you can shove food down my throat. Sure, men can be horny "idiots," as you call them. Horniness is fine; it's a natural feeling. But their horniness doesn't excuse them from politeness and certainly doesn't excuse them from violating or making people uncomfortable. And "proper women" just sickens me. Why is it that sex degrades a woman's character, but enhances a man's character? Unfair, to say the least. As a woman, I believe we need to take a stand against societal attitudes that could hurt us.

  • CON

    Many of these problems stem from women being seen as...

    Feminism is currently helping us reach gender equality in 1st world countries

    Thank you for accepting this debate. Good luck. Now I have one request for you, read everything I have to say and consider it. Speaking to you as person to person I want this debate to act like a bridge to reach common ground and have everyone leave the debate with a better understanding of how the world is. Thank you in advance. Now let's begin. Let me open by introducing you to a fairly recent poll. ( http://www.huffingtonpost.com............ ). A total of 20% of Americans support feminism, despite this an overwhelming majority of 82% of Americans are in favor of equality between the sexes. The only logical explanation for this is people see feminist actions and they don't believe that feminism is for equality. Why do a vast majority of Americans believe in sex equality, but only a small majority of 20% of Americans support feminism? Well let me bring up a woman named Lauren Southern. Some time back she held up a sign saying "I don't need feminism because I believe in equality" ( https://www.youtube.com............ ) In this video she talks about how in the movement of feminism the only issues that are talked about are women's issues, on the other hand men's issues are outright ignored. She then talks about the many issues men face. This includes men actually being raped MORE than women in the U.S. if you take all rapes into account, including prison rape. ( http://www.dailymail.co.uk............ ) Next she talks about how men make up almost half of domestic abuse victims, but they do not receive any of the help that women have when they are victims. She also talks about how men make up 80% of suicide victims. ( http://www.avoiceformen.com............ ), 92% of workplace deaths ( http://amptoons.com............ ), 97% of combat deaths ( http://www.avoiceformen.com............ ) and 77% of homicide ( http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov............ ). She also talks about how men go through many of the same problems women do that feminists complain about. This includes objectification, rape, and mistreatment, yet feminism acts like only women go through these things. That is not equality. Many of feminism's responses to this is that is that feminism is actually trying to help solve the issues men face. This is outright not true. When is the last time you've seen a protest that talks about very serious issues men face such as losing custody in 84% of divorces regardless of whether they can do a better job raising the child, despite their wives initiating the divorce 66% of the time. ( http://www.avoiceformen.com............ ). I have never seen nor heard of feminists protesting such an issue, therefore one can conclude that feminism does NOT help solve issues men face. Other feminists will say that these issues stem from stereotypes about men and women. I'm not going to deny this, however I will say that feminism is not helping at all. Many of these problems stem from women being seen as victims while men are seen as the abusive perpetrators, such as the domestic abuse problem I previously talked about. This stereotype also causes other issues such as men being 165% more likely to be convicted than women, men receiving 63% longer sentences than women for the exact same crime and studies finding that gender court bias against men is 6 times that of bias against race ( http://www.law.umich.edu............ ). Most of all what feminism says is that feminism is helping women's issues, and men having issues is a separate problem. 1. That is outright NOT equality, therefore this defense concedes that feminism is not a movement towards equality. 2. I would have no problem if it weren't for this one thing, that one thing is that feminism makes the problem worse. One major thing they do that hurts the movement towards equality is treat men like the abusive perpetrators and treat women as victims. This is blatantly shown when feminism talks about issues like domestic violence, rape and objectification. These are issues both men and women face, yet feminism treats men like the abusive perpetrators and they treat women as the victims. Sounds like a harmful stereotype to me. Feminists will try to shut down any who speak out against the movement or any who try to talk about men's issues. This is shown by women's studies professors telling their students to go protest against those who talk about men's issues. Here's a news report about feminists protesting people just talking and discussing male issues: https://www.youtube.com............ Now I understand not all feminists are like this. Some feminists truly believe in equality between the sexes, and I truly hope you are one of those people, pro. If you are one of those people who believe in true equality and consider themselves feminist then I believe you do not belong in the movement. You deserve better, therefore I would like to introduce you to an alternative to being a feminist. Being an egalitarian. Egalitarian: of, relating to, or believing in the principle that all people are equal and deserve equal rights and opportunities. Now let me finish explaining why feminism is not a movement for equality by telling a story.The story of Earl Silverman. A video of one of his friends telling the story better than I ever could can be found here: https://www.youtube.com............ . But I doubt all of you are going to watch the whole video so let me tell the story myself. It all started when Earl left an abusive relationship where his wife abused him. He started looked for domestic abuse shelters to help him. Everywhere he went he found out that the shelters only help female victims. He did not find a shelter. As a result he decided to start his own shelter for male victims, for there are no shelters for them where he lived, Canada. He then followed researchers and those researchers found study after study showed that men were victims of domestic abuse too and how the government viewed domestic violence was outright wrong. (Female victim, male perpetration) He then saw that all of these studies were actively being ignored. He did his own investigation as to why this was. What he found was any study about gendered issues has to be approved by the Minister of the Status of Women has full veto power to any studies that would be published to publicly funded sites. If she denies any study for any reason the report stops at her desk. Later on he started requesting funding from the government. Everywhere he went he was denied funding because wherever he went no funding was offered towards male victims, even though there is funding for female victims. Seems a little sexist doesn't it? He then applied for a hearing in front of a Human's Rights council for sex discrimination. He was denied, over and over. He appealed over and over, and ended up facing two lawyers. After four years the final statement was made that because there were not equal male and female victims it isn't sex discrimination. Which obviously is not true. He then tried to get on public shows to talk about the issues he faces. He eventually was accepted to debate a feminist in public television. The feminist did not show up. In fact feminism created this whole mess with their distorted models and censorship. Next he eventually was so far in dept he could not run his shelter anymore. He was forced to shut down and sell the house. The day after he moved out Earl Silverman was found hanging by the neck in his garage. Earl Silverman had committed suicide. His suicide note can be found here: http://www.familyofmen.com............ In this note he says the reason he killed himself is to create a need for funding for male victims. He hoped with his death feminists would realize men can be victims too, and he hoped that maybe they would finally care. Feminism is responsible for his death. If feminism was for equality he would have got funding, male victims would be cared for. If feminism was for equality Earl SIlverman would be alive today. Feminism is not for equality. I rest my case.

  • CON

    Many of these problems stem from women being seen as...

    Feminism is currently helping us reach gender equality in 1st world countries

    Thank you for accepting this debate. Good luck. Now I have one request for you, read everything I have to say and consider it. Speaking to you as person to person I want this debate to act like a bridge to reach common ground and have everyone leave the debate with a better understanding of how the world is. Thank you in advance. Now let's begin. Let me open by introducing you to a fairly recent poll. ( http://www.huffingtonpost.com...... ). A total of 20% of Americans support feminism, despite this an overwhelming majority of 82% of Americans are in favor of equality between the sexes. The only logical explanation for this is people see feminist actions and they don't believe that feminism is for equality. Why do a vast majority of Americans believe in sex equality, but only a small majority of 20% of Americans support feminism? Well let me bring up a woman named Lauren Southern. Some time back she held up a sign saying "I don't need feminism because I believe in equality" ( https://www.youtube.com...... ) In this video she talks about how in the movement of feminism the only issues that are talked about are women's issues, on the other hand men's issues are outright ignored. She then talks about the many issues men face. This includes men actually being raped MORE than women in the U.S. if you take all rapes into account, including prison rape. ( http://www.dailymail.co.uk...... ) Next she talks about how men make up almost half of domestic abuse victims, but they do not receive any of the help that women have when they are victims. She also talks about how men make up 80% of suicide victims. ( http://www.avoiceformen.com...... ), 92% of workplace deaths ( http://amptoons.com...... ), 97% of combat deaths ( http://www.avoiceformen.com...... ) and 77% of homicide ( http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov...... ). She also talks about how men go through many of the same problems women do that feminists complain about. This includes objectification, rape, and mistreatment, yet feminism acts like only women go through these things. That is not equality. Many of feminism's responses to this is that is that feminism is actually trying to help solve the issues men face. This is outright not true. When is the last time you've seen a protest that talks about very serious issues men face such as losing custody in 84% of divorces regardless of whether they can do a better job raising the child, despite their wives initiating the divorce 66% of the time. ( http://www.avoiceformen.com...... ). I have never seen nor heard of feminists protesting such an issue, therefore one can conclude that feminism does NOT help solve issues men face. Other feminists will say that these issues stem from stereotypes about men and women. I'm not going to deny this, however I will say that feminism is not helping at all. Many of these problems stem from women being seen as victims while men are seen as the abusive perpetrators, such as the domestic abuse problem I previously talked about. This stereotype also causes other issues such as men being 165% more likely to be convicted than women, men receiving 63% longer sentences than women for the exact same crime and studies finding that gender court bias against men is 6 times that of bias against race ( http://www.law.umich.edu...... ). Most of all what feminism says is that feminism is helping women's issues, and men having issues is a separate problem. 1. That is outright NOT equality, therefore this defense concedes that feminism is not a movement towards equality. 2. I would have no problem if it weren't for this one thing, that one thing is that feminism makes the problem worse. One major thing they do that hurts the movement towards equality is treat men like the abusive perpetrators and treat women as victims. This is blatantly shown when feminism talks about issues like domestic violence, rape and objectification. These are issues both men and women face, yet feminism treats men like the abusive perpetrators and they treat women as the victims. Sounds like a harmful stereotype to me. Feminists will try to shut down any who speak out against the movement or any who try to talk about men's issues. This is shown by women's studies professors telling their students to go protest against those who talk about men's issues. Here's a news report about feminists protesting people just talking and discussing male issues: https://www.youtube.com...... Now I understand not all feminists are like this. Some feminists truly believe in equality between the sexes, and I truly hope you are one of those people, pro. If you are one of those people who believe in true equality and consider themselves feminist then I believe you do not belong in the movement. You deserve better, therefore I would like to introduce you to an alternative to being a feminist. Being an egalitarian. Egalitarian: of, relating to, or believing in the principle that all people are equal and deserve equal rights and opportunities. Now let me finish explaining why feminism is not a movement for equality by telling a story.The story of Earl Silverman. A video of one of his friends telling the story better than I ever could can be found here: https://www.youtube.com...... . But I doubt all of you are going to watch the whole video so let me tell the story myself. It all started when Earl left an abusive relationship where his wife abused him. He started looked for domestic abuse shelters to help him. Everywhere he went he found out that the shelters only help female victims. He did not find a shelter. As a result he decided to start his own shelter for male victims, for there are no shelters for them where he lived, Canada. He then followed researchers and those researchers found study after study showed that men were victims of domestic abuse too and how the government viewed domestic violence was outright wrong. (Female victim, male perpetration) He then saw that all of these studies were actively being ignored. He did his own investigation as to why this was. What he found was any study about gendered issues has to be approved by the Minister of the Status of Women has full veto power to any studies that would be published to publicly funded sites. If she denies any study for any reason the report stops at her desk. Later on he started requesting funding from the government. Everywhere he went he was denied funding because wherever he went no funding was offered towards male victims, even though there is funding for female victims. Seems a little sexist doesn't it? He then applied for a hearing in front of a Human's Rights council for sex discrimination. He was denied, over and over. He appealed over and over, and ended up facing two lawyers. After four years the final statement was made that because there were not equal male and female victims it isn't sex discrimination. Which obviously is not true. He then tried to get on public shows to talk about the issues he faces. He eventually was accepted to debate a feminist in public television. The feminist did not show up. In fact feminism created this whole mess with their distorted models and censorship. Next he eventually was so far in dept he could not run his shelter anymore. He was forced to shut down and sell the house. The day after he moved out Earl Silverman was found hanging by the neck in his garage. Earl Silverman had committed suicide. His suicide note can be found here: http://www.familyofmen.com...... In this note he says the reason he killed himself is to create a need for funding for male victims. He hoped with his death feminists would realize men can be victims too, and he hoped that maybe they would finally care. Feminism is responsible for his death. If feminism was for equality he would have got funding, male victims would be cared for. If feminism was for equality Earl SIlverman would be alive today. Feminism is not for equality. I rest my case.

  • CON

    Many of these problems stem from women being seen as...

    Feminism is currently helping us reach gender equality in 1st world countries

    Thank you for accepting this debate. Good luck. Now I have one request for you, read everything I have to say and consider it. Speaking to you as person to person I want this debate to act like a bridge to reach common ground and have everyone leave the debate with a better understanding of how the world is. Thank you in advance. Now let's begin. Let me open by introducing you to a fairly recent poll. ( http://www.huffingtonpost.com......... ). A total of 20% of Americans support feminism, despite this an overwhelming majority of 82% of Americans are in favor of equality between the sexes. The only logical explanation for this is people see feminist actions and they don't believe that feminism is for equality. Why do a vast majority of Americans believe in sex equality, but only a small majority of 20% of Americans support feminism? Well let me bring up a woman named Lauren Southern. Some time back she held up a sign saying "I don't need feminism because I believe in equality" ( https://www.youtube.com......... ) In this video she talks about how in the movement of feminism the only issues that are talked about are women's issues, on the other hand men's issues are outright ignored. She then talks about the many issues men face. This includes men actually being raped MORE than women in the U.S. if you take all rapes into account, including prison rape. ( http://www.dailymail.co.uk......... ) Next she talks about how men make up almost half of domestic abuse victims, but they do not receive any of the help that women have when they are victims. She also talks about how men make up 80% of suicide victims. ( http://www.avoiceformen.com......... ), 92% of workplace deaths ( http://amptoons.com......... ), 97% of combat deaths ( http://www.avoiceformen.com......... ) and 77% of homicide ( http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov......... ). She also talks about how men go through many of the same problems women do that feminists complain about. This includes objectification, rape, and mistreatment, yet feminism acts like only women go through these things. That is not equality. Many of feminism's responses to this is that is that feminism is actually trying to help solve the issues men face. This is outright not true. When is the last time you've seen a protest that talks about very serious issues men face such as losing custody in 84% of divorces regardless of whether they can do a better job raising the child, despite their wives initiating the divorce 66% of the time. ( http://www.avoiceformen.com......... ). I have never seen nor heard of feminists protesting such an issue, therefore one can conclude that feminism does NOT help solve issues men face. Other feminists will say that these issues stem from stereotypes about men and women. I'm not going to deny this, however I will say that feminism is not helping at all. Many of these problems stem from women being seen as victims while men are seen as the abusive perpetrators, such as the domestic abuse problem I previously talked about. This stereotype also causes other issues such as men being 165% more likely to be convicted than women, men receiving 63% longer sentences than women for the exact same crime and studies finding that gender court bias against men is 6 times that of bias against race ( http://www.law.umich.edu......... ). Most of all what feminism says is that feminism is helping women's issues, and men having issues is a separate problem. 1. That is outright NOT equality, therefore this defense concedes that feminism is not a movement towards equality. 2. I would have no problem if it weren't for this one thing, that one thing is that feminism makes the problem worse. One major thing they do that hurts the movement towards equality is treat men like the abusive perpetrators and treat women as victims. This is blatantly shown when feminism talks about issues like domestic violence, rape and objectification. These are issues both men and women face, yet feminism treats men like the abusive perpetrators and they treat women as the victims. Sounds like a harmful stereotype to me. Feminists will try to shut down any who speak out against the movement or any who try to talk about men's issues. This is shown by women's studies professors telling their students to go protest against those who talk about men's issues. Here's a news report about feminists protesting people just talking and discussing male issues: https://www.youtube.com......... Now I understand not all feminists are like this. Some feminists truly believe in equality between the sexes, and I truly hope you are one of those people, pro. If you are one of those people who believe in true equality and consider themselves feminist then I believe you do not belong in the movement. You deserve better, therefore I would like to introduce you to an alternative to being a feminist. Being an egalitarian. Egalitarian: of, relating to, or believing in the principle that all people are equal and deserve equal rights and opportunities. Now let me finish explaining why feminism is not a movement for equality by telling a story.The story of Earl Silverman. A video of one of his friends telling the story better than I ever could can be found here: https://www.youtube.com......... . But I doubt all of you are going to watch the whole video so let me tell the story myself. It all started when Earl left an abusive relationship where his wife abused him. He started looked for domestic abuse shelters to help him. Everywhere he went he found out that the shelters only help female victims. He did not find a shelter. As a result he decided to start his own shelter for male victims, for there are no shelters for them where he lived, Canada. He then followed researchers and those researchers found study after study showed that men were victims of domestic abuse too and how the government viewed domestic violence was outright wrong. (Female victim, male perpetration) He then saw that all of these studies were actively being ignored. He did his own investigation as to why this was. What he found was any study about gendered issues has to be approved by the Minister of the Status of Women has full veto power to any studies that would be published to publicly funded sites. If she denies any study for any reason the report stops at her desk. Later on he started requesting funding from the government. Everywhere he went he was denied funding because wherever he went no funding was offered towards male victims, even though there is funding for female victims. Seems a little sexist doesn't it? He then applied for a hearing in front of a Human's Rights council for sex discrimination. He was denied, over and over. He appealed over and over, and ended up facing two lawyers. After four years the final statement was made that because there were not equal male and female victims it isn't sex discrimination. Which obviously is not true. He then tried to get on public shows to talk about the issues he faces. He eventually was accepted to debate a feminist in public television. The feminist did not show up. In fact feminism created this whole mess with their distorted models and censorship. Next he eventually was so far in dept he could not run his shelter anymore. He was forced to shut down and sell the house. The day after he moved out Earl Silverman was found hanging by the neck in his garage. Earl Silverman had committed suicide. His suicide note can be found here: http://www.familyofmen.com......... In this note he says the reason he killed himself is to create a need for funding for male victims. He hoped with his death feminists would realize men can be victims too, and he hoped that maybe they would finally care. Feminism is responsible for his death. If feminism was for equality he would have got funding, male victims would be cared for. If feminism was for equality Earl SIlverman would be alive today. Feminism is not for equality. I rest my case.

  • CON

    But I doubt all of you are going to watch the whole video...

    Feminism is currently helping us reach gender equality in 1st world countries

    Thank you for accepting this debate. Good luck. Let me open by introducing you to a fairly recent poll. ( http://www.huffingtonpost.com... ). A total of 20% of Americans support feminism, despite this an overwhelming majority of 82% of Americans are in favor of equality between the sexes. The only logical explanation for this is people see feminist actions and they don't believe that feminism is for equality. Why do a vast majority of Americans believe in sex equality, but only a small majority of 20% of Americans support feminism? Well let me bring up a woman named Lauren Southern. Some time back she held up a sign saying "I don't need feminism because I believe in equality" ( ) In this video she talks about how in the movement of feminism the only issues that are talked about are women's issues, on the other hand men's issues are outright ignored. She then talks about the many issues men face. This includes men actually being raped MORE than women in the U.S. if you take all rapes into account, including prison rape. ( http://www.dailymail.co.uk... ) Next she talks about how men make up almost half of domestic abuse victims, but they do not receive any of the help that women have when they are victims. She also talks about how men make up 80% of suicide victims. ( http://www.avoiceformen.com... ), 92% of workplace deaths ( http://amptoons.com... ), 97% of combat deaths ( http://www.avoiceformen.com... ) and 77% of homicide ( http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov... ). She also talks about how men go through many of the same problems women do that feminists complain about. This includes objectification, rape, and mistreatment, yet feminism acts like only women go through these things. That is not equality. Many of feminism's responses to this is that is that feminism is actually trying to help solve the issues men face. This is outright not true. When is the last time you've seen a protest that talks about very serious issues men face such as losing custody in 84% of divorces regardless of whether they can do a better job raising the child, despite initiating the divorce 66% of the time. ( http://www.avoiceformen.com... ). I have never seen nor heard of feminists protesting such an issue, therefore one can conclude that feminism does NOT help solve issues men face. Other feminists will say that these issues stem from stereotypes about men and women. I'm not going to deny this, however I will say that feminism is not helping at all. Many of these problems stem from women being seen as victims while men are seen as the abusive perpetrators, such as the domestic abuse problem I previously talked about. This stereotype also causes other issues such as men being 165% more likely to be convicted than women, men receiving 63% longer sentences than women for the exact same crime and studies finding that gender court bias against men is 6 times that of bias against race ( http://www.law.umich.edu... ). Most of all what feminism says is that feminism is helping women's issues, and men having issues is a separate problem. 1. That is outright NOT equality, therefore this defense concedes that feminism is not a movement towards equality. 2. I would have no problem if it weren't for this one thing, that one thing is that feminism makes the problem worse. One major thing they do that hurts the movement towards equality is treat men like the abusive perpetrators and treat women as victims. This is blatantly shown when feminism talks about issues like domestic violence, rape and objectification. These are issues both men and women face, yet feminism treats men like the abusive perpetrators and they treat women as the victims. Sounds like a harmful stereotype to me. Feminists will try to shut down any who speak out against the movement or any who try to talk about men's issues. This is shown by women's studies professors telling their students to go protest against those who talk about men's issues. Here's a news report about feminists protesting people just talking and discussing male issues: Now I understand not all feminists are like this. Some feminists truly believe in equality between the sexes, and I truly hope you are one of those people, pro. If you are one of those people who believe in true equality and consider themselves feminist then I believe you do not belong in the movement. You deserve better, therefore I would like to introduce you to an alternative to being a feminist. Being an egalitarian. Egalitarian: of, relating to, or believing in the principle that all people are equal and deserve equal rights and opportunities. Now let me finish explaining why feminism is not a movement for equality by telling a story.The story of Earl Silverman. A video of one of his friends telling the story better than I ever could can be found here: . But I doubt all of you are going to watch the whole video so let me tell the story myself. It all started when Earl left an abusive relationship where his wife abused him. He started looked for domestic abuse shelters to help him. Everywhere he went he found out that the shelters only help female victims. He did not find a shelter. As a result he decided to start his own shelter for male victims, for there are no shelters for them where he lived, Canada. He then followed researchers and those researchers found study after study showed that men were victims of domestic abuse too and how the government viewed domestic violence was outright wrong. (Female victim, male perpetration) He then saw that all of these studies were actively being ignored. He did his own investigation as to why this was. What he found was any study about gendered issues has to be approved by the Minister of the Status of Women has full veto power to any studies that would be published to publicly funded sites. If she denies any study for any reason the report stops at her desk. Later on he started requesting funding from the government. Everywhere he went he was denied funding because wherever he went no funding was offered towards male victims, even though there is funding for female victims. Seems a little sexist doesn't it? He then applied for a hearing in front of a Human's Rights council for sex discrimination. He was denied, over and over. He appealed over and over, and ended up facing two lawyers. After four years the final statement was made that because there were not equal male and female victims it isn't sex discrimination. Which obviously is not true. He then tried to get on public shows to talk about the issues he faces. He eventually was accepted to debate a feminist in public television. The feminist did not show up. In fact feminism created this whole mess with their distorted models and censorship. Next he eventually was so far in dept he could not run his shelter anymore. He was forced to shut down and sell the house. The day after he moved out Earl Silverman was found hanging by the neck in his garage. Earl Silverman had committed suicide. His suicide note can be found here: http://www.familyofmen.com... In this note he says the reason he killed himself is to create a need for funding for male victims. He hoped with his death feminists would realize men can be victims too, and he hoped that maybe they would finally care. Feminism is responsible for his death. If feminism was for equality he would have got funding, male victims would be cared for. If feminism was for equality Earl SIlverman would be alive today. Feminism is not for equality. I rest my case.

  • CON

    This is just to prove that men are going their own way...

    First World Feminism in the USA

    Now, let's refute his first book. "The Second Sex" was published in 1949. We all know that a lot has changed since then. The feminist movement of the 70's. Girls are now put on a throne. Refer to my videos. He uses his first book to refute this. This is just to prove that men are going their own way because of feminism. This isn't true. I implore the voters to actually watch video 2. Again, I implore the voters to watch the video and decide who's right. A lot of feminists are "professional victims" Please watch my other videos to understand what I mean. I'm so sorry my rebuttals are so short. I'm prepping for early college. Please watch the videos and decide for yourself. Have fun guys! :D

  • CON

    Feminism is sexist the same way that a neurosurgeon is...

    Feminism more like sexism or more like (Female supremacy).

    Yes I have refuted my opponant's argument. Feminism is sexist the same way that a neurosurgeon is against cardiovascular health, and that is not at all. Feminism is sexist the same way that a neurosurgeon is against cardiovascular health, and that is not at all. Feminism just means that people focus on allowing women to be equal to men.

  • CON

    Feminism is just the idea that women have rights. ... The...

    Feminism more like sexism or more like (Female supremacy).

    My opponant is getting the wrong idea of feminism. I am a feminist, and I am not sexist. Feminism is just the idea that women have rights. The same way a neurosurgeon specializes in fixing your brain is the same way feminists specialize in women's rights.

  • CON

    I am going to be arguing that the title of this debate is...

    Modern feminism is beneficial to America, and does not cause harm.

    I am going to be arguing that the title of this debate is NOT true. My opponent will attempt to give an argument as to why modern, 3rd-wave feminism is beneficial to America, and does not cause any harm.