PRO

  • PRO

    As historical feminism has gained ground, a market demand...

    Modern Feminism is culturally important

    As historical feminism has gained ground, a market demand for anti-feminists has emerged, in which feminists with little to lose are financially and socially rewarded for denouncing feminism, damaging the reputation of a just cause [1]. A reiteration of feminism's contextual importance is therefore worth some effort from my end. I expect a recurring theme in my industry-related arguments will be based the testimonies of women who have experienced or observed gender-based workplace exploitation [2][3][4][5][6]. On a less tangible level, some feminists feel that the concept of woman has been redefined by male supremacy [7][8], calling for feminist environments to help women reconstruct the female identity in a culture of male entitlement. It has also been argued that the influence of women's rights movements, racial civil rights movements, and worker's rights movements are entwined together [9][10]. My arguments will certainly include the important role of modern feminism in shedding light on human trafficking [11][12], prostitution [12][13][14], and pornography [15][16]. Depending on the scope of the debate, I may also discuss the weaknesses of patriarchal social structures [15] and the role of female education and empowerment in obtaining economic prosperity and political wisdom [17][18][19]. Of the following list of sources, several are not fully available for free. I have access to a few and own two in paper form, but I will limit my quotes to phrases available in the free samples of the literature, to allow opposition and readers to verify with the click of a mouse. If I list additional sources in other rounds, I will number them starting at the number I left off on at the previous round (for example, if i add a source in round 2, it will be listed as [20]), to reduce clutter. 1. Jennifer Pozner "Female Anti-Feminism for Fame and Profit" http://standyourground.com... 2. Faith Wilding, "Monstrous Domesticity" http://www.feministezine.com... 3. Clara Zetkin, "Lenin on the Women's Question" http://www.marxists.org... 4. Clara Zetkin, "On a Bourgeois Feminist Petition" http://www.marxists.org... 5. Alexandra Kollontai, "The Social Basis of the Woman Question" http://www.marxists.org... 6. Alexandra Kollontai, "Women Workers Struggle For Their Rights" http://www.marxists.org... 7. Linda Alcoff, "Cultural Feminism versus Post-Structuralism" http://www.jstor.org... 8. Verta Taylor and Leila J. Rupp, "Women's Culture and Lesbian Feminist Activism" http://www.jstor.org... 9. Patricia Hill Collins, "Defining Black Feminist Thought" http://www.feministezine.com... 10. "The Combahee River Collective Statement" http://circuitous.org... 11. C Whyte, "Intersectionality und Kritik" http://link.springer.com... 12. Potter, Downey, & Montoya, "Transformative Activism and Human Trafficking" http://digitool.library.colostate.edu... 13. Jodie Masotta, "Decades of Reform: Prostitutes, Feminists, and the War on White Slavery" http://www.uvm.edu... 14. Maddy Coy, "Prostitution Harm and Gender Inequality: Theory Research and Policy" http://books.google.com... 15. Pala Molisa, "Accounting For Pornography, Prostitution And Patriarchy" http://www.apira2013.org... 16. Kat Banyard, "Prostitution, Harm and Gender Inequality: Theory, Research and Policy" http://www.tandfonline.com... 17. Zafiris Tzannatos, "Women and Labor Market Changes in the Global Economy: Growth Helps, Inequalities Hurt and Public Policy Matters" http://www.sciencedirect.com... 18. Hayes and Flannery, "Women as Learners: The Significance of Gender in Adult Learning." http://eric.ed.gov... 19. Mukhopadhyay and Seymour, "Women, education, and family structure in India." http://www.cabdirect.org...

  • PRO

    I think feminism is used against men and is insane. ......

    Feminism is used against men.

    I think feminism is used against men and is insane. My opponent (obviously) will think the opposite. After an opponent has been chosen, we both will come up with rules. 4 rounds (1 acceptance round) translates to 3 rounds.

  • PRO

    Feminism is a collection of movements and ideologies...

    Feminism will lead to world changes

    Feminism is a collection of movements and ideologies aimed at defining, establishing, and defending equal political, economic, and social rights for women. Patriarchy has been existed for many years and now it's matriarchy time. I believe that women will change the world for better.

  • PRO

    Firstly you say that women and men are treated equally...

    Modern Feminism is Necessary

    I'm afraid i can't argue all your points in this round as i'm in a hurry now to finish this poll due to lack of time but i will try to argue as much as i can. Firstly you say that women and men are treated equally when it comes to sports this is not completely true boys are still far more encouraged to go into sports then girls and girls are often seen as butch if they enjoy sports too much. Next gender roles are an actual thing and how society demands you to act you will often conform this is just psychology not even to do with feminism and while there are biological differences these wouldn't go away men and women would still be different just the gender roles would. Next all movements have radicals no matter who you join i am a huge advocate for the LGBT movement but i can admit we have radicals that go too far and feminism is no exception and also about egalitarian thing it's not up to me to change the movements name so i can't really decide that but perhaps in the future thats what it will be called And for my conclusion i'm going to keep it brief because i believe i have made all my points for Firstly you say that women and men are treated equally when it comes to sports this is not completely true boys are still far more encouraged to go into sports then girls and girls are often seen as butch if they enjoy sports too much. Next gender roles are an actual thing and how society demands you to act you will often conform this is just psychology not even to do with feminism and while there are biological differences these wouldn't go away men and women would still be different just the gender roles would. Next all movements have radicals no matter who you join i am a huge advocate for the LGBT movement but i can admit we have radicals that go too far and feminism is no exception and also about egalitarian thing it's not up to me to change the movements name so i can't really decide that but perhaps in the future thats what it will be called And for my conclusion i'm going to keep it brief because i believe i have made all my points for feminism i do still believe it's necessary and while it's not perfect and i admit that women will probably always need it i do however think the feminist movement should shift their focus onto other problems then some of the ridiculous ones that they do like the shirt guy such as women's rights in 3rd world countries the Muslim sexual assaults in Europe and a variety of men's issues. But i will not abandon it simply because some radicals got into it instead i think we should fix it and bring it back to what it was before i really could on with more points but i think i'll let the other rounds speak for themselves thank you for debating me and good luck.

  • PRO

    Emasculates men. ... This is evidence.

    Feminism fights to harm men.

    My opponent agreed that feminism fights to harm men in their point 2. Gender equality by definition harms men, women, families and society. The bottom line, says Venker, is that, "Feminism has sabotaged women's happiness." Worse, she adds, it's flipped male-female relationships upside down. Just one example: Men more than ever are seeking love, marriage and kids while women want independence. As Schlafly's niece, Venker grew up seeing an alternative view to mainstream feminists views on TV and in the media. Now as a mother in Missouri, she's trying to help her aunt highlight what conservatives feel is wrong with feminism and to build a new understanding between men and women. The book is controversial, especially in liberal circles, for lines like this: "Unfortunately, once feminism came along, women abandoned their pedestal in droves and decided they wanted to share the man's pedestal with him. They claimed they wanted both sexes on the same pedestal to represent equality and prove men and women are the same. Instead, they found themselves in conflict. Since there isn't enough room on a pedestal for both of them, feminists pushed men off to make room for themselves." She added, "That's not equality. That's matriarchy." On sex: "Sex is a problem, too. More and more wives today say they're too tired for sex. ...Naturally, this poses a problem for husbands, who are rarely too tired for sex. Sex is a man's favorite past time, and the wives who are too tired to have it are often resentful of this fact. If change is going to come, it will have to come from women"they are the ones who changed the natural order of things. Moreover, men aren't the ones who kvetch about their place in the world"not because they have it so great, contrary to feminist dogma, but because it's not in their nature. Men tend to go along with whatever women say they need." The duo have also raised concerns about Palin calling herself a conservative feminist. "You can't be both," says Venker, who adds that Palin is "confusing" conservatives by calling herself a feminist. Mainstream media and liberal politicians and pundits also take a big hit, blamed for promoting feminism. They are especially critical of the "feminist elite" including Oprah, first lady Michelle Obama, CBS anchor Katie Couric, and Arianna Huffington. "What these women have in common is clout, and they believe they know that's best for women," they write, adding: "The problem is that the majority of women in this country don't have the power"feminists do. And feminists influence liberals as well as conservatives to confirm to the feminist message." From the book and our recent interview, Whispers has pulled this list: Five Ways That Feminism Has Ruined America 1. It hurt marriage. Women want to wait so that they can keep their identities longer and men are finding easy sex, taking away a big reason for marriage. 2. Undermines child rearing. More kids are in childcare where discipline is lax resulting in a "epidemic" of bad kids, childhood obesity, and bullies. 3. Two-income trap. With both husband and wife working it's hard to live without life's luxuries. 4. Undermines college sports. Title IX has ended many male-only sports at some colleges. 5. Emasculates men. It's better to be a wuss than speak up or mouth off and face charges of harassment or chauvinism. Today, a stay-at-home mother is viewed as a kind of second-class woman. In fact, feminists do not even view stay-at-home mothers as persons. This derogatory view began with Betty Friedan. "[V]acuuming the living room floor"with or without makeup"is not work that takes enough thought or energy to challenge any woman"s full capacity. Down through the ages man has known that he was set apart from other animals by his mind"s power to have an idea, a vision, and shape the future to it. " [W]hen he discovers and creates and shapes a future different from his past, he is a man, a human being" (The Feminine Mystique). The basic idea of feminism was that women should have a choice to go to the workplace and become less animal-like. What does that make a stay-at-home mother? Since being a wife and mother was supposedly glorified in the 1950s, the women"s movement fought to demote that role to the lowest level possible. Many impressionable young women wholeheartedly believed this 1960s philosophy. Unfortunately, this feminist teaching has planted deep roots in the consciousness of American women. The feminist tree has blossomed. Today, it is considered a great shame to be a wife and mother only. In fact, being a wife and mother is synonymous with the meaningless life of a lower, uneducated class of people. What are today"s fruits of this philosophy? The fight for women"s rights has actually turned into a fight against the family. Even the mothers of modern feminism admit that radical feminists have worked hard to repudiate the family. Feminist Stephanie Coontz, history professor at the Evergreen State College in Olympia, Wa., wrote in the Washington Post, "We cannot afford to construct our social policies, our advice to our own children and even our own emotional expectations around the illusion that all commitments, sexual activities and caregiving will take place in a traditional marriage" (May 1). You don"t have to read between the lines to understand that such thinking is destroying the traditional family! It is within the Anglo-American world that feminism has been embraced the most passionately. These countries also have the highest divorce rates in the world, and are producing record numbers of fatherless children"which in turn creates many other social problems. Robert Sheaffer writes, "One can try to argue that the U.S. family died of natural causes at precisely the same time feminists began shooting at it, but after examining the depth and ferocity of the feminist attack against women"s roles as wives and mothers, such an argument fails to convince" (Feminism, the Noble Lie). Let"s own up to it: Feminism has caused some tragic results for the family. If we are going to fix our social problems, we must recognize that feminism has led our Western families into serious crises. Here is how it happened. Although many young women answered the call to pursue a career, they could not deny their natural desire for a husband and children. Many then opted to have a husband, children and a career. Realizing that certain feminine desires could not be denied, a new movement slogan was quickly pushed into public view""having it all." This slogan lives on. But it ignores a hard reality for many working mothers: Having it all also means handling it all. Working career mothers were forced into a high-stress rat race. Having it all was supposed to be fulfilling, but it was not. Now, almost four decades later, women find they are not any closer to finding true, satisfying fulfillment. For some, "having it all" has meant losing it all. The truth is, working mothers suffer. The children of working mothers always suffer. And should we forget"the husband suffers too. Severe fatigue plagues many working mothers. Balancing career, marriage and child care is an impossible task. Few can actually do it all. To do it all, corners have to be cut. Unfortunately, because of feminist peer pressure, marriage and family are sacrificed before career. Many two-career marriages have crumbled. Children have been left at home alone. Can we begin to see the harm that working motherhood has done to families? Our society of working mothers is a disaster. Experts agree that the industrial revolution produced families with absentee fathers. Now feminism has given us families with absentee mothers. What does this mean? Essentially, our children are growing up alone. It is estimated that as many as 60 percent of American children do not have full-time parental supervision. Think about it. If children are blessed enough to be in a two-parent home, generally they still have both parents working outside the home. The children are left home alone. If the family is run by a single parent, that parent (whether male or female) is working. Again, the children are home alone. This means our youth are growing up with an ever-dwindling amount of parental love, nurturing and supervision. The average latchkey child (a child returning home after school with no parent to greet him) is alone three hours per day. Some of these children are as young as 8; most are in their teens. When we think about parents arriving home after a difficult day at the office, we can logically surmise that there is not much quality time left for the child. All children and teens fundamentally need acceptance, praise, teaching and discipline. Children need to be taught right from wrong. Children need to learn how to be successful. This requires experience and activities. These needs are best met by parents. If these needs are not met at home, children have no other choice than to look elsewhere. This makes our children frustrated, angry and vulnerable to many dangers. This is evidence.

  • PRO

    Actually, to be completely honest, feminism movements are...

    feminism is not correlated to gender equality.

    Actually, to be completely honest, feminism movements are for gender equality. Not saying you don't have a point, but women do receive lower wages than men, according to http://www.iwpr.org... , which was backed up with about 10 resources.

  • PRO

    Individuals within that society however may not share...

    Is feminism necessary.

    Okay, feminism is the act of gaining equality between male and female, not for females to rise above males or vice versa, I understand that males can sometimes be stereotyped as 'pigs' but they are also a wide range of stereotypes against woman, an example being 'women are bad drivers'. So I guess you could say both sides are being oppressed. You also made a case about women being able to claim custody of a child by accusing the man of sexual assault with no evidence.Legality of child custody has been the same for years and years, long before women were on a more or less equal footing, therefore that whole statement you used if anything shows that sexism still exists. If a couple split up society EXPECTS a woman to take up the responsibility of raising the child. The fact that it is hard for men to get custody etc is more reflective of the fact men basically in general obviously don't want it. Otherwise men in their hundreds of thousands would be demanding 'equal rights', wouldn't they? For the offspring paragraph, you said 'Even though that is true women and Feminist like to use pregnancy as an argument saying they're the only ones who can produce offspring so that accusation is not rubbish.'. I would like to point out that you have included opinionated sources and infer that feminists still think they are essential, even though this is just one opinion speaking for all feminists. For your third paragraph, you mentioned 'the pay gap doesn't exist' and provided a YouTube video as evidence. Even if you are right (although I have done some research and I don't think you are, although the figures were highly contradicting), there is still the matter of 'some employers won't hire women in case they become pregnant and have to take maternity leave', which you did not contradict. The reason feminism as a movement exists is clearly because equality has not yet been reached in much the way that anti racism movements exist even though racism has been clearly reduced and as a society we inherently know racism is wrong. Individuals within that society however may not share that view, as long as racism exist people will fight against in and these people will be classified as a group, as long as sexism exists then people will again oppose it, these people are more commonly known as feminists. However don't worry if the pendulum of the battle of the sexists swings too far he can form his own masculanist society. That is the joy of living in a society where people are afforded all kinds of rights. Finally, you seem to be under the impression that feminism isn't that important anymore and isn't really an issue. In places like Western Europe, I agree that we have made a lot of progress and the situation is a lot better, but take somewhere like India, Yemen, Nepal etc. and the situation is a lot worse. Just look at the included source for information why. 1) http://www.buzzfeed.com... 2) http://www.marieclaire.com...

  • PRO

    I am going to be arguing Pro, that feminism is not needed...

    feminism is not needed in the west

    I am going to be arguing Pro, that feminism is not needed in the west. My opponent has already conceded that women have the same rights as men and the only oppression of women is in middle eastern like countries.

  • PRO

    Men are more oppressed then women in today's society. ......

    Feminism is Cancer- rapid debate!

    The modern feminist movement is utter stupidity. Men are more oppressed then women in today's society. Third wave Men are more oppressed then women in today's society. Third wave feminism does not preach equality, it preaches women superiority. This is an awful plague on society.

  • PRO

    They're all over Facebook and YouTube. ... That isn't...

    Modern Feminism (Third-Wave Feminism) Destroys Men and Their Families

    Feminism in its original structure was not a bad thing, as I have stated already. In fact, feminism as a whole was not something that should have been taken lightly. Original feminists fought for women's rights; the right to vote just as men were was a major driving force behind feminism. What happened along the way? Generation after generation of women continued the fight for equal rights. Somewhere along the line it began to be more about petty arguments and general "man-hating" and less about equal rights. Third wave feminists began hating men and wanted to change how society viewed them, instead of continuing to work for equality. Many third wave feminists are overweight, ugly, and their attitudes suck. Seems harsh? Maybe. But check out these self proclaimed third wave feminists ranting about everything from white male privilege to manspreading to men getting their "pronouns" wrong ... how rude! They're all over Facebook and YouTube. Calling names to anyone who disagrees with their morbid way of thinking. Third wave feminism is a bogus movement intended to help women and completely ignore men. Third wave feminists will tell you that their movement is for gender equality when this is just not true. They have no intention in addressing men's issues. If third wave feminists truly cared for equality, they would fight for equality, not just for women's issues. As the video link above states men have just as many (if not more in some cases) issues as women and yet feminists turn a blind eye towards it. Equality does not exist, but it isn't just women being affected by it. Men, in many cases, have it tougher than women. Something the video also mentions. Rapes in prison, death on the job, etc. These are issues that feminists who are for "equality" continue to ignore. Let's look at the word "equality." e·qual·i·ty əG2;kwälədē/ noun the state of being equal, especially in status, rights, and opportunities. "an organization aiming to promote racial equality" synonyms: fairness, equal rights, equal opportunities, equity As you can see, equality is being equal with each other. Something third wave feminists don't truly fight for. They always demand that women get the same things as men, but when it comes to men getting the same things as women, they fall silent every time. That is not true equality between the sexes. That is women being afforded more opportunities than men. Affirmative action is also tied into third wave feminism. As the video states, women have an easier time getting into college than men, especially white men. Somehow, these third wavers have made it possible for women to be labelled as a minority and so make it easier for them, along with blacks, Mexicans and Asians, to be accepted into college easier than men. How is this equality? When did getting into college based on your skin color or sex be the deciding factor? That isn't equality.

CON

  • CON

    I accept your challenge, pro. ... Feminism is clearly...

    Feminism should end.

    I accept your challenge, pro. Feminism is clearly still needed as we can see from rampant rape culture and dumb kids like you undermining the struggle of living as a woman.

  • CON

    Well I don't plan on having to rely on a sited source...

    Feminism is ruining video games

    Dearest apologies to my opponent for my forfeiture. It being Christmas time, I was lazy in my checking this site. I quite simply forgot to post my previous argument. Voters, please factor this into your consideration for the debate. It was unprofessional and deserves to be penalized in the conduct section. Since this is the final round, I shall refrain from posting any new arguments and instead sum up why I deserve to win this debate. Throughout his arguments, my opponent has provided arguments based more on his own personal bias against changes made in certain video games he favors than on accredited data. He even goes as far as to admit this, saying “You say I am making assumptions without any hard data or articles to back it up. Well I don't plan on having to rely on a sited source because I don't need to. Some things are just felt and seen by people who have a love for the medium.” Because of this, my opponent has failed to prove his point. My opponent has yet to prove any changed came from Well I don't plan on having to rely on a sited source because I don't need to. Some things are just felt and seen by people who have a love for the medium.” Because of this, my opponent has failed to prove his point. My opponent has yet to prove any changed came from Some things are just felt and seen by people who have a love for the medium.” Because of this, my opponent has failed to prove his point. My opponent has yet to prove any changed came from feminism, therefore, he has yet to prove that feminism is ruing video games. And, to briefly restate my main argument, I’ve still yet to see what games have been ruined based on changes stemmed from feminism. The truth is that more people are finding that females are just as capable in hero roles. While this may negatively affect a few games that have strictly masculine lore connected to it, it is not ruining video games in their entirety. Therefore, I urge you to vote Con on this debate. Thanks to my opponent for a well argued, very engaging debate. Once again, I apologize for my forfeiture. Have a great holiday season, and a happy New Year!

  • CON

    So again, If I walked outside, Shot someone, And then...

    Feminism

    I would like to remind my opponent that the last round isn't the time for a revelation. "The absurdity of that response means that you have no rebuttal for my point worth anyone's time. " - It really isn't absurd, You were implying most achievements done under the umbrella of feminism were historically feminist. So again, If I walked outside, Shot someone, And then claimed it was a feminist action, Would it be? Under your usage of the term it would be, But under mine it isn't. "Name one time outside of the MeToo movement where committing a crime against someone who never wronged you because you have newfound power has been justified. Yes" - It is certainly not 'silly' in any manner. You asked for a single example outside the MeToo movement itself of such a thing: Malik St. Hilaire is one, The accuser is facing little to no prison time and seemingly no social repercussions from the left-wing. "You stating that there's a hierarchy means that women are not currently socially equal to men, Which supports many of my points. Including the fact that if there was a more even "Hierarchy" women would be mating all directions on the hierarchy, Same as men, And becoming more individual people who can express themselves and love who they want. " - No, Women are biologically preconditioned to do this; it's an evolved behaviour. There isn't just "a" hierarchy either, There is a great many. A simply as possible, The male-female dominance hierarchy consists of males butting heads and women picking the 'winners. ' Females have their own dominance hierarchy as well, But it hardly matters for this discussion. - Most relevant studies indicate that 80% of women pursue the top 20% of men. And 80% of men pursue 20% of women. The way societies traditionally balance out hypergamy and polygamy is through monogamy and stigma. If we simply disregard traditional institutions and values society will become ultra-violent and destroy itself within the course of a few generations. Source on my profile.

    • https://www.debate.org/debates/Feminism/34/
  • CON

    They haven't contributed anything to society and probably...

    Feminism should end.

    Very well, I will admit that my name is not Jennifer Lopez. Donald Trump has not been proven to be a rapist neither has Bill Clinton. How is Bill Clinton a sexual predator then? Citation missing! Killing a baby means nothing. If I've said it once I've said it a hundred times. Killing a baby means nothing. They haven't contributed anything to society and probably never will if they were going to be aborted. Many aborted babies are retards or downies and therefore would be a burden on society. Other aborted babies would have had whores or crackheads as mothers and no fathers present so they would've become absolute trash and they would have had to resort to crime. If one or two feminists throwing feces at police is feminism then I suppose one or two anti-feminists being homosexuals means homosexuality is anti-feminism. Every woman should support feminism. If they don't, its because they don't know any better. Women do get paid less due to pregnancy, clearly you missed my point. They get paid less because they can't come to work and because they will need time to take care of the child. Only 10% of men get kidney stones and that is not something you can compare to a baby. You don't have to live with your kidney stones for 9 months, you don't have to take care of your kidney stones and you don't need kidney stones in order to sustain human life on this earth. Everyone can get cancer, idiot. Fox News has brainwashed you, dumb little idiot. I am physically stronger than you are, I am mentally stronger than you are and I am smarter than you are. Fear me child. Donald Trump has ruined all of your diplomatic relations, repeatedly broken international law, bombed Syria based on allegations, made your nation the laughing stock of the world and raped women and children.

  • CON

    Yes many women can be crazy and it has gone too far, but...

    Feminism Needs to die out

    The final round we should stop talking about countries. Iraq: why wouldn't you be concerned about 13? It is still very young, and the girl is only in year 7 or 8, don't you think its too young for her to fall pregnant and go under child labor? Nepal: When I said men are custodians of women, I meant they should protect them in a kind and loving way; not in a way where her freedom and education is taken away and her whole life is controlled by a man, NO! That's not protection, that's imprisonment. Turkey: Well what you said here is true I can't deny, but it can happen and I'm not only talking about Turkey but other places too. Afghanistan: That story only happened 2-3 years ago so its not that long ago. So women who marry very young and get beaten up by their husbands and face troubles and hardships, and depression, and you're telling me its no one's fault? Mali: Your point here is good so can't refute. Anyways, this world is corrupt and it gets worse and worse every year. Nothing is going to change even if you and other people say it should, it won't. As I've said before, feminism is the advocacy of women's rights on the ground of the equality of sexes, so women want to be as equal as men. Yes many women can be crazy and it has gone too far, but the main reason why feminism has increased a lot is because of the incidents that I've mentioned before and many more. Whether feminism should die out or not, it's not gonna change anything, and either way it seems most likely nothing will ever change. Physical violence and abuse against women is a common thing you can't deny that.

  • CON

    We can explore this further if Pro would like. ... And...

    Feminism is no longer needed.

    Introduction My opponent begins by saying that because the "patriarchy" and wage gap don't really exist, feminism is therefore obsolete. Of course, I can prove that feminism still has relevance in today's society without upholding the existence of those particular examples. I'd like to point out that if I can provide even just one example of where feminism is relevant, I will have won this debate. I think Pro is the one who needs luck. Re: Graduation Rates The fact that men have proven to be academically inferior to women is a useless point. Yes, it highlights that women tend to do better in school environments than men. It doesn't prove that school environments have been "tailored for women" as Pro suggests. Furthermore, even if school environments were tailored for women (which Pro hasn't proven -- he's simply linked to an article showing that girls outperform boys, and a YouTube video which none of us are responsible for watching) that would only prove that society has made it easier for girls vs. boys in one particular forum: education. It wouldn't prove that feminism is obsolete. Moreover, there is evidence of sexism against women in certain areas of academia -- particularly higher education (lower level education favors women) and in the STEM fields. We can explore this further if Pro would like. Re: The Wage Gap I will not be arguing in favor of the wage gap. Re: Custody Cases Up until the Industrial Revolution (when many men worked far outside the home) custody was almost always given to the fathers. It wasn't until the 1970s when courts began to shift and consider what was in the best interest of the child. According to a study done by the National Survey of Family Growth, a married father spends on average 6.5 hours a week taking part in primary child care activities. The married mother spends on average 12.9 hours. Since the majority of homes now have 2 working parents, these statistics show that mothers are still doing twice as much child care as fathers even while they work outside the home. It only makes sense that mothers who have a closer bond due to the time spent caring for a child be the one more likely to retain primary custody after a divorce [1]. Here's another thing to consider: In 51 percent of custody cases, both parents agreed — on their own — that mom become the custodial parent. In 29 percent of custody cases, the decision was made without any third party involvement. In fact, only 4 percent of custody cases ever go to trial, and only 1.5 percent completed custody litigation. In other words, 91 percent of child custody after divorce is decided with no interference from the family court system at all [2]. Pro says the evidence shows nothing but "pure bias." But how can there be a bias toward mothers when fewer than 4 percent of custody decisions are made by the Family Court? I look forward to Pro's explanation. The facts of the matter are that fathers are less involved in child care during the marriage, and are overwhelmingly not involved in child care post-divorce -- even though custody arrangements are mostly settled outside of court. Nonetheless, let's suppose there is in fact a huge bias against fathers in the court system. In that case, Pro has just made an argument in my favor. So thanks for that. Arguments Feminism is the supposition that men and women should have equal social, political, and economic rights and opportunities. That doesn't mean that men and women are equal or the same. It means one's sex shouldn't play a significant role in the way they are treated in society. As such, by highlighting examples where men are disadvantaged in society on the basis of their sex (i.e. in family court, in education, etc.) Pro is simply proving the utility of feminism. Since men experience negative sexism and/or social barriers and prejudices for being male, they too can benefit from feminism. Sexism at Work While it's true that society is more equal today than ever before, society is still not entirely equal (for lack of a better term) despite Pro's bare assertion to the contrary. Occupational sexism refers to refers to any discriminatory practices, statements, actions, etc. based on a person's sex that are present or occur in a place of employment and research shows it still exists today. There are 3 common observations on sexism and work: - Women tend to take on more domestic tasks; - Women and men are often designated different occupational roles; and - Women often have lower status and less frequent promotions These patterns can work as the foreground for the commonality of occupational stereotypes [3]. Researchers analyzed 88 workplace studies published from 1985 to 2012 with 93 independent samples and 73,877 participants. After analyzing data from the 73,877 workers, the researchers found "the more common, less intense forms of gender harassment (like office cultures where sexist jokes are tolerated) appeared as detrimental for women’s occupational well-being as the less frequent, high-intensity incidents (like sexual coercion and unwanted sexual attention)." So while it's usually the far more disgustingly overt sexual harassment that makes headlines, this study suggests that daily sexist jokes and comments made by co-workers can also chip away at a woman’s occupational worth [4]. However we don't have to spend a good deal of time talking about sexism at work unless my opponent feels necessary. As I said, so long as I can prove one instance of where feminism is relevant, I will have won this debate even if there was no such thing as sexism at work. In that case, it should be noted that I have already won this debate. By highlighting instances of sexism against men, my opponent has specified why feminism is still useful today. While feminists focus on women's issues, they do recognize and work on other activist issues pertaining to sex and gender. For example many feminists acknowledge how problematic it is to body shame males as well as females [5]. Violence Against Women In this debate, I will be highlighting the prevalent issue of violence against women, particularly sexual assault. The frequency of sexual harassment and violence directed at women (and also men -- but women by far) is disturbing. Nearly 1 in 5 women have reportedly experienced rape of some kind [6]. Even the most conservative estimates suggest 5% of women on college campuses experience rape or attempted rape every single year [7]. Alcohol is not a factor in about 1/4 of those cases... even though being intoxicated blurs the lines, it certainly doesn't excuse rape - especially blatant rape such as the rape committed recently by Brock Turner, a Stamford swimmer who received a sentence of about 1 total month in jail for raping an unconscious woman behind a dumpster. And speaking of "blurred lines," there is arguably a component of our culture that promotes not only complete double standards in how women are allowed to express and engage in their sexuality (especially compared to men), but songs like "Blurred Lines" arguably promote rape in general. Thus there is still some harmful sexism that is negatively impactful in society, and ways in which feminist teachings can improve social norms and well-being for all. Not ALL feminist theoies have to be valid in order for feminism to be relevant. Sources [1] http://www.pewsocialtrends.org... [2] http://www.huffingtonpost.com... [3] https://en.wikipedia.org... [4] http://pwq.sagepub.com... [5] http://jezebel.com... [6] https://www.cdc.gov... [7] Kilpatrick, Resnick, Riggierio, Conoscenti, & McCauley, 2007; American College Health Association, 2013 [8] Lisak & Miller, 2002; Mohler-Kuo, et al., 2004

  • CON

    I'm going to argue that feminism is not needed in the...

    feminism is not needed in the west

    I'm going to argue that feminism is not needed in the west. Women have the same rights as men, and I don't see feminists complaining about the oppression of women in middle eastern countries those are the areas that feminists need to focus on.

  • CON

    I’m happy Pro returned so that we could have one round....

    Feminism is bad for society

    I’m happy Pro returned so that we could have one round. Feminism is not exclusive to women Pro’s first argument is that feminism as a movement applies only to the rights of women. His only support is the appearance of the prefix “fem-”. The sentiment is unfortunately common, but that’s only because feminism is widely misunderstood. What feminists strive for is equality, period. Pro quotes the phrases “be a man, don’t cry, etc.” as examples of feminists using male gender stereotypes. But this is precisely the kind of thing that feminists are opposed to. The idea that men should keep their feelings bundled up because they’re men is repugnant to feminists. So if feminism is for both women and men, why have a name that’s not gender-neutral? Because many more political, economic, cultural, and social rights need to be established for women than for men. Due to the structure of society and gender norms, supporters of equality should naturally prioritize women since the work needed to promote fairness for men is not as paramount. There may be many instances where men face problems and stress due to their gender but they have had much less of a struggle than women. Just to solidify feminism’s inclusion of men, I quickly did a google search for feminist websites and here’s what I found from ones that showed up on the front page Everyday Feminism Feminism is a movement dedicated to gender equality. Yet plenty of people still interpret feminism as an effort to prioritize women over other groups — like, for example, the many Men’s Rights Activists who believe feminists are concerned with destroying men by falsely accusing of them of crimes like rape and denying them other rights. In reality, feminists do not want to destroy or hate men, but rather alter social, political and economic structures so that people of all gender identities can live equally. The existing system, known as the patriarchy, doesn’t only disadvantage women but yields multiple types of oppression, including forms that hurt men. This is why men are not only capable of identifying as feminist, but can benefit from the movement as well. http://goo.gl... This was the first website that came up and it clearly demonstrates a concern for the equality of men. Feministing.com From the executive director of the site: ...She [his wife] was the earner and he was a homemaker. After she tragically died in childbirth, he was told he could not receive her social security benefits...This is a good example of how gender discrimination is bad for everyone. [We need to] tear down those barriers so a woman or a man could pursue whatever path in life they had the G-d given talent to pursue. http://goo.gl... Feminist.com Features a Men & Women as Allies initiative on its front page and mentions supporting "a world where men and women are allied, empowered and equal" http://goo.gl... Feminist.org Links to the site NOMAS which is dedicated to enhancing men's lives" as well as “challenging the old-fashioned rules of masculinity that embody the assumption of male superiority. Traditional masculinity includes many positive characteristics in which we take pride and find strength, but it also contains qualities that have limited and harmed us". -from NOMAS http://goo.gl... These websites are indicative of the sentiments felt by most feminists--they wouldn’t be so popular if otherwise. It’s easy to find extremists calling themselves feminists who make ridiculous claims like all heterosexual sex is rape, but they are not at all representative of the group. Wage Gap Please note that Pro does not directly relate this to the resolution. If the wage gap is not an issue--which it almost undeniably is--that doesn’t entail that feminism is harmful. I fail to see an argument. It’s merely preemptive. Pro’s entire argument hinges on women desiring lower-paying jobs than men. The fact is that women face a wage-gap in nearly every occupation, from male-dominated occupations, gender balanced jobs, and even female-dominated fields. Pro doesn’t bother to argue against the 77% figure. His only argument is invalid based on the facts I just stated. http://goo.gl... Pro touches on an issue which is that women are vastly underrepresented in STEM fields. This itself is a pressing problem. The US has a growing shortage of scientists and engineers. Women need to cease being subconsciously discouraged from traditionally masculine occupations. I’d like to see evidence that STEM careers are biologically masculine oriented--that is, not dominated by males due to culture and social pressure. Pro’s defense only makes sense if it is inherently part of the biological makeup of men and women that make men lean towards STEM. Women choose not to study STEM for the same reasons many men do: culture. 74% of high school student boys choose not to study physics. That decision is made without any prior interaction with the subject. It’s a safe assumption that this implies most boys make the judgement based on perceptions about science that exist in our culture. For boys, physics is a nonconformist activity. For girls, it is more so. Both choose not to study it for cultural reasons. Girls more so are taught to see it as unattractive. For boys, science may be seen as socially unattractive and nerdy. However, "women face a double social barrier because science is regarded as both unfeminine and nonconformist". It's pivotal to the furthering of scientific advancement that we insure women are encouraged to develop scientific interests. This is a cultural obstacle and thus can be changed. Feminism seeks to break down these barriers. Imagine if Emmy Noether, one of the most important mathematicians for physics in the 20th century had succumbed to societal pressures and taught French instead of pursuing mathematics? or had given up after universities refused to give her pay or title despite her being a mathematical genius, as other imminent physicists attested to? How many Emmy Noethers or Marie Curries have we missed out on because of gender prejudice against female scientists? The world is in need of more scientists and engineers and feminists seek to make sure more women have the opportunity to fulfill this need. The world runs on science and engineering, so this is obviously one case in which feminism is very important and beneficial to society. http://goo.gl... Studies show that countries with greater gender equality "had smaller gender gaps in math". Given the opportunity, women will do just as well as men. http://goo.gl... RE: Not just women suffer from gender prejudice Yes, I heartily agree that men suffer from gender prejudice. Pro’s just preaching to the choir. Body image effects both men and women and men are also victims of domestic violence. Those claims are true. I could add that men are often reflected as being incapable of sexual restraint and unable to control their natural urges. That’s a very demeaning assumption and I’ve personally seen many feminists--both men and women--defending men against such caricatures. Feminists don’t like misandry any more than misogyny. People are feminists for different reasons and there’s a whole spectrum of attitudes towards a variety of issues. Domestic violence is just one of many issues that tends to be important to many feminists. And there are many subsets of domestic violence. If we look at sexual violence and stalking, then that is more of a concern for women. On the other side, violence against men tends to get trivialized. That is a valid concern and feminists should push against it. Another point I’d like to make is that campaigning against domestic violence is a good thing and, if feminists are ignorant of the extent to which women are the perpetrators, that does not change the value of fighting against domestic violence for when women are the victims. It means that feminists should shift their focus somewhat, but they’re still doing allot of good. It’s not harmful.

  • CON

    If the proposition that women and men should be...

    Feminism is irrelevant, unjust and flawed. It should be stopped.

    I would consider myself a feminist, and I certainly do not believe that men are responsible for all oppression of women. Since I refuse to use your biased definition, I will refer to good ol' Webster for the meaning: Feminism: The theory of the political, economic, and social equality of the sexes. In other words, women should have equal rights and opportunities as men. If the proposition that women and men should be considered as equal human beings sounds "irrelevant, unjust, and flawed," to you, then I hope you come to realize that males are no greater or lesser than females in value and should be treated equally. I also have to note that I think your definition of feminism is contradictory. You say modern day feminists "refute" (meaning to prove wrong) that men are solely to blame for the suffering and oppression of women. You wrote, in effect, that feminists do NOT think this. That is the interpretation of "refute," anyway. Feminism does not mean hatred of the male species. That is not equality. True feminists do not despise males because men have had more societal and political power and opportunity up until recently. Feminism is simply a movement for the equality of men and women. Misandry is not feminism.

  • CON

    If there is discrimination, then there is also a need for...

    Feminism is no longer about gender equality

    Discrimination and indeed violence against men certainly does happen, but I repeat my contention that such shameful misandry does not constitute feminism. Pro refers to the other issues I raised as off topic. Since I did not elaborate on the reasons for bringing them up, I shall do so now. Pro does not dispute that massive discrimination against women happens, which was the purpose of raising the aforementioned issues. If there is discrimination, then there is also a need for action to counter that discrimination. Feminism, by definition, is that action. Misandry, by contrast, is discrimination against men. Pro contests that feminists have crossed the line between positive discrimination in favour of women to achieve equal rights and negative discrimination against men intended to punish men or surpass equal rights. I disagree for several reasons. First, the unfortunate societal discrimination that Pro describes is a uniquely Western problem. The vast majority of nations worldwide not only do not suffer this problem, they actively hold a status wherein it is women, not men, that are inferior. Let us consider that it was only in the last fifty years that women got sufferage in several countries (http://www.time.com...). It was only a dozen years ago that Egypt cancelled a law in which a rapist could walk free if he married his victim (http://news.bbc.co.uk...). Statistically, girls are less likely to be allowed an education, permitted to own property, survive childhood... (http://www.taliacarner.com...) ...in short, as this source shows (http://www.taliacarner.com...), the vast majority of feminists are seeking to aim for equal rights, not surpass them. It is my contention that Pro has not observed the state of feminism outside Western nations, and so speaks of a situation with regards to Western nations which is inapplicable to the vast majority of feminists outside them. Now to Western nations themselves. I cannot comment on the actions of NOW, since I don't know why they behaved like that. (I would imagine that they felt it was an invitation to be degraded when they were already as a gender experiencing more degradation than men.) I can however state with reference to the sources in the previous round that discrimination against women still exists in the Western world, so that positive action must be taken to counter it. Therefore, feminism exists. Of course there are women who hate, and blame. I contend that the silent majority of Western women support feminism but do not support misandry; and I reiterate my explanation that many women who blame men feel in turn blamed for their gender via religious instruction as well as the worldwide and/or former state of female oppression. This does not justify the behaviour; it does, however, tender an explanation.