Feminism is and has achieved equality. 3rd wave feminism is oppressive.
"Feminism has achieved equality. Third wave feminism is oppressive." That's what we're meant
to be discussing, remember? Nothing else. Let's debate what we're meant to debate,
not some incoherent, off-topic stuff you're spitting at me. We can discuss issues
only pertaining to the West if you REALLY want to. Please let's have a rational, open
minded debate about this. At the moment you're being very closed minded. Please try
to open your mind. This topic has two areas that we can talk about. Area 1: HAS feminism
achieved equality? Area 2: IS TWF oppressive? Area 1: Feminist movements in the past
have achieved SOME equality. I've given you examples of this in the previous round.
However, previous feminist movements have NOT achieved many other areas of equality.
For example, only 29% of the UK elected House of Commons are women. Only 18% of Congress
are women in the US. That isn't equal. Given the split in the country is roughly 50/50,
this is clearly not equal. Feminists aren't saying that women should rule the world.
Feminists want women to be equally represented. Ireland had full same-sex marriage
before the US. Ireland is a modern country in the modern world; not a backwards one.
Inability to get an abortion is a big issue for Irish women. Paid maternity leave
in the US is another inequality that feminists clearly haven't achieved. Why should
it be the mother who looks after the child at the detriment of her job? Because the
sexist culture in the US says that mothers look after the children, fathers make the
money. It deprives a mother from being able to make as much money as a man and harms
their chances of promotion. This isn't equal. In France, both mothers and fathers
get paid parental leave to look after their child. That's more equal. But this doesn't
mean feminism has achieved equality. There are many more countries that don't have anything like
France. Women might not HAVE to look after the kids, but they often do because there's
no alternative. The pay gap exists. You may point to a few well paid women but that doesn't mean all women earn the same. The links above are evidence of that. Even in jobs that are dominated by women, men
get paid more. Please download the PDF: http://www.iwpr.org... This compares full-time
male/female workers. Please READ IT. More evidence for the blatant inequality between
men/women: "Women are far more economically independent and socially autonomous, representing
42% of the UK workforce and 55% of university graduates. YET women are still less
likely than men to be associated with leadership positions in the UK: they account
for 22% of MPs and peers, 20% of university professors, 6.1% of FTSE 100 executive
positions, and 3% of board chairpersons. This stark inequality is consistently reflected
in pay gaps, despite the introduction of the Equal Pay Act in 1975. Income inequality
has risen faster in the UK than any other OCED country and today women earn on average
"140,000 less than men over their working careers." http://www.theguardian.com...
These are just areas that have been legislated on. There are many areas that can't
be legislated on, such as gendered stereotypes. To say that gendered stereotypes don't
exist is false. They exist. Gendered stereotypes limits equality because people assume
women should do one thing and men another. "Simply, gender stereotypes are generalizations
about the roles of each gender. Gender roles are generally neither positive nor negative;
they are simply inaccurate generalizations of the male and female attributes. Since
each person has individual desires, thoughts, and feelings, regardless of their gender,
these stereotypes are incredibly simplistic and do not at all describe the attributes
of every person of each gender." http://www.healthguidance.org... You can find a list
of the most common gender stereotypes. To say they don't exist is wrong. They do exist.
Here's a list of 15 reasons why we still need feminism focusing on the US. Please read it: http://offthewrittenpath.com... 2 parts I want
to draw extra attention to are: Talking about maths and science, there's an unconscious
bias against women, probably because they're seen as "male" subjects. "When tests
and applications are made anonymous, women score higher than they did if the reviewer
knew their gender." http://www.slate.com... And this: Transgender women still lack
many legal rights and face biases in society. "In many places, someone can still be
fired for merely being transgender." http://www.huffingtonpost.com... Feminism clearly hasn't achieved equality. It's achieved a bit, but still has a long way to
go. I've given lots of modern day examples why feminism is still needed and how they haven't reached equality. Let's move to the next area.
Area 2: "Third wave feminism is oppressive." Firstly, your understanding of TWF (& feminism generally) is false. It is wrong. You clearly don't know what TWF is. My comments
in the last round were mainly to do with TWF. If you think they were irrelevant, you
clearly don't understand TWF. The ideas behind feminism CAN change as different people emphasise different ideas. Let me try and inform you.
Here's what http://everydayfeminism.com... has to say about TWF: "Bottom line, the
goal is homogenous: Feminism aims for gender equality within a currently patriarchal society." TWF is about allowing
us to be comfortable being who we are, with our own individual desires and interests.
A woman can be feminine, but she shouldn't have to be. She can also be masculine.
It is the woman's personal choice. TWF tries to get women (and men) to see that it's
their own choice how to act. TWF tries to get people to understand that no one is
bound by gendered stereotypes that limit how they can act. Feminism isn't outdated. TWF focuses on different ideas within feminism - problems in the real world. We don't use a different "-ism" for it because it's
still feminism. It still has the same core beliefs - that women (and thereby men, too) should be
equal with one another. It holds the beliefs that both sexes and all genders should
be equal. Simone de Beauvoir said: "A woman is not born, she is made." It is societal
influences that feed into a female's mind that tells her to be feminine and conform
to the gender stereotype that fits a "woman". While I'm not sure that you'll understand
this, I hope you try to understand that societal influences effect how a person behaves.
These influences make a person think that "As a woman, I should be at home looking
after the kids" or think "As a man, I should be the one earning money". Just because
there's no law saying women must be the stay-at-home parent, society deems it so.
EXAMPLE: the US doesn't have a law that someone must leave a tip. However, if you
don't leave a tip in a restaurant, you will be socially stigmatised. SIMILARLY, if
a woman doesn't act like a woman, she will be stigmatised. TWF wants to try and break
down social norms and gender stereotypes to allow people to act and behave how they
like. They want freedom. Not oppression. You haven't given ANY examples of how TWF
is oppressive. You gave one woman who tried to defend gay rights activists. That's
not oppressive, that's liberating for the gay rights activists. The other example
was of a woman who banned cisgender men. The woman wasn't a TWF. You seem to think
that any female person is a TWF. They are not. A person can be female without having
to be a feminist. Please give relevant, rational responses. The previous rounds you
did not. Please do so now.
Pro vs. con view
Topic space view
