PRO

  • PRO

    You say it's common but I have to disagree. ... Just...

    Feminism Does Not Equal Hate for Me

    You say it's common but I have to disagree. I have seen mostly positive and opened minded feminists. We can't just jumble then all together. That's not fair. Besides, saying that man hate is common makes it seem like feminism hasn't done any good. Without feminism, the world would be a very ugly, unfriendly place. Feminism has helped women and men. It has shown people that you don't have the follow the gender roles society tries to hand out. Just because some people are men haters and feminists should not reflect what feminism stands for.

  • PRO

    I would like to conclude with my argument that feminism...

    Feminism is necessary

    I would like to clear up the matter of "Moving the Goalposts." As I am part of a debate team myself, I understand what "moving the goalposts" is, as well as the problems it causes. In this case, I do not agree with my opponent's argument. You provided the definition of necessary as "essential, indispensable, requisite." I would like to fully define all three of these words: Essential: "absolutely necessary; extremely important." Indispensable: "absolutely necessary." Requisite: "made necessary by particular circumstances or regulations; a thing that is necessary for the achievement of a specified end." The definition you provided simply used synonyms for the word necessary. I elaborated on the definition as using synonyms does not provide a clear definition of the word. As this has become a problem, I would elaborate on the definition again, using a much clearer definition: "required to be done, achieved, or present; needed; essential." I believe in both of these cases, the definition has supported my case that feminism is indeed necessary. I would like to conclude with my argument that feminism is indeed necessary for a fully functional, fair society. It is needed for humans to live cohesively. Feminism provides people with a sense of self-worth and identity, something that is required for a fully functional human being. I would like to remind you again that the length of something's existence does not determine its worth. I would also like to state the fact that as most of my opponent's argument has consisted of semantics, it is not valid considering the definitions we provided. I feel this conversation has fallen to semantics, therefore not allowing for a real debate on this issue. I would be happy to debate this topic with you again, as I am interested in what you have to say. I do not feel this debate accurately represents what either of us has to say. I found the definitions of all three words simply through Google. Thank you and good luck! :)

  • PRO

    We blow it off like they should. ... They thought they...

    Feminism is bad

    Sure the points you made are true, but we are not in Iraq. Im talking about the United States society. Secondly, i never said a PORNOGRAPHY magazine. And third, all of your points are not feminism, they are pro equal rights. I am all for equal rights, but the feminist community has strayed so far from "equal rights," that they've turned it into taking rights away from men. In todays job market, there is no more equal rights, its minorities and women get jobs over white men. I could go apply at McDonalds with a high school degree and a white woman could do the same and because of "feminism" she would get the job. If, by a miracle, i were to get the job, assuming she is a feminist, would label it as sexist when in reality if she got the job, i would just walk away from it and go apply somewhere else. And while i will agree with your conclusion that women are still discriminated against, so are men. Nobody reports the cases in men because we dont freak out about it. We blow it off like they should. This is the same principle as racism, a white man can be racist yet a black cannot. Even though they sold their own people. The image that women are up in arms about, or the "barbie doll figure," is one that they made. They thought they looked good like that so they starve themselves or puke their food up. And still a man can be sexist but a woman cannot. Its a backwards outlook for an insane group group of people. Equal rights is good, however, feminism is not.

    • https://www.debate.org/debates/Feminism-is-bad/1/
  • PRO

    Just to shortly begin, I feel as if todays face of...

    Feminism Is Cancer

    Just to shortly begin, I feel as if todays face of feminism has become destructive. I would like to hear my opponent describe her (because we know no guy will argue against me) thoughts of this ideology, and why it is beneficial to todays society.

  • PRO

    Yes, there are places in the world where women are...

    Feminism is idiotic.

    Yes, there are places in the world where women are treated a lot worse then men are, but when I was talking about feminism, I meant the movement in America. Of course, I did not specifically say that, and I will now formally forfeit.

  • PRO

    CON opens by stating "I am not going by the traditional...

    Feminism: Positive or Negative

    Hey, hey, glad this debate is fully underway! Thanks for your arguments, bryanlink. The resolution states "Feminism: Positive or Negative". I find a good portion of what CON said to be of value. However, most of what was said here does not affirm the resolution. I offered a Maxim by which to decide a winner. It currently remains unchallenged. As such, my rebuttals will be in relation to CON"s failure to address the Maxim in these opening statements. A Philosophy/Ideology is not equal to it's adherents. CON opens by stating "I am not going by the traditional definition of feminism", yet offers no definition, and chooses not to challenge the one I have offered. Even if all of what CON claims is true, a "feminist" is not "feminism". For example, one cannot argue that law enforcement is, on balance, a negative based on the fact that there are some bad cops. A cop might be in law enforcement, but a cop is not identical to law enforcement. There are good and bad people in the world. The fact that some people are bad, or make poor decisions does nothing to suggest that people are, in fact, bad. This is the Composition Fallacy. CON is reasoning from the fact that a selection of the set is bad that therefore the entire set is bad. A feminist is not feminism, any more than a brick is a house. If tumblr feminists and radical feminists were the only ones which existed, then perhaps this would work. However, Feminists have existed at least since the 18th century. The majority of CON's arguments rests on this fallacy. Even CON's comments on rape culture, Patriarchy, and Male Oppression rest on this fallacy. I agree that these are harmful theories, however, they are not embraced by feminists everywhere. In fact, if we take the definition above, most people are feminists, that is, they wish for men and women to be equal by law. The term "masculinist" refers to a person of this mindset in relation to men. CON's reasoning does not offer support for the resolution that must be upheld. CON must offer reasons to believe that Feminism is negative. The Maxim and definitions I offered are up for challenge and discussion. However, they stand unless a challenge is presented.

  • PRO

    For example, the wage gap is a myth I'm sure anyone with...

    feminism is meaningless

    As we all know feminism is the belief that women should be equal to men and that implies that they are not equal right now. Feminism was a brilliant movement and it succeeded but third wave feminists mainly consist of white females who want to feel discriminated against And not part of the "white male" group. Now I understand that people are discriminated against, the Muslim community, black people, hispanics, and other minority groups. Now let's address this I am a white male. Ok and I am in my eyes progressive I don't identify with republicans nearly at all. But feminism is based on lies. For example, the wage gap is a myth I'm sure anyone with any iq points can understand why if not I don't want to explain the whole thing so please if you are not already aware, stop reading this and research it. This is not it though, plenty of feminists can accept this and there main problem is this rape culture that is associated with white males specifically. Rape is a terrible crime I think we can all agree but many of the facts about it are over exaggerated and misrepresented. Feminists also create this kind of culture that no matter how you look you're beautiful, yet if a male is short they make fun of them, call them ugly, etc. but if a girl is fat and we won't date them because of it then we are "terrible" and if a guy is short, feminists won't date them. Let me remind you that you can control your weight but not your height, so that's a valid feminist concept. Stop telling everyone that they're beautiful, they're not. Okay some people are ugly, welcome to genetics. I don't want to hear that it's easier to be a male then a female in society (obviously I don't mean overall because I understand you have issues guys don't have to deal with) it's an invalid argument. Any feminists looking at this, please debate me

  • PRO

    I'd like to know if he uses the term 'modern art' in a...

    Modern Day Feminism Has No Legitimacy.

    1) I'd like to know whether my opponent lives in the Middle East, or if the vast majority of feminists he/she comes across are of the 'first world' variety and hs/her references to Islamic feminism were a clever red herring to distract from the real point of this debate. Since I made specific allusions to the legitimate patriarchy in the Muslim world, and denounced what you refer to as 'first world' feminism (as you yourself say, the variety that is by far the more prominent) why make a point you knew I would agree with if you weren't intentionally trying to distract? 2) Con uses the term 'modern' to refer to every sect of feminism from across the globe. I'd like to know if he uses the term 'modern art' in a similar fashion. Does 'modern art' refer to current presidential portraits and also Amazonian cave paintings and also to the crayon scribblings of my nephew, or do we all assume that the term 'modern art' refers to that specific breed of convoluted shapes favored by western intelligentsia? If Con prefers this latter definition, why do the rules suddenly change with Does 'modern art' refer to current presidential portraits and also Amazonian cave paintings and also to the crayon scribblings of my nephew, or do we all assume that the term 'modern art' refers to that specific breed of convoluted shapes favored by western intelligentsia? If Con prefers this latter definition, why do the rules suddenly change with feminism? 3) What else in the Muslim world besides feminism do you consider to be 'modern' ? Do they have a 'modern' culture, or 'modern' rules of law? If they have nothing else that we in the west would consider 'modern', on what grounds can you say that their feminism is modern? Isn't it safe to say that their campaigns to not be tortured and raped are a few centuries of progression behind the feminism we see in the US, Canada, Great Britain, and Europe? 4) If, by your own admission, the vast majority of feminists are illegitimate, how can you group them together with a minority of feminists we both acknowledge to be fully legitimate? Isn't this a little unfair? Notice how the title of this debate is not "All Feminists Have No Legitimacy", but rather "Modern Day Feminism Has No Legitimacy." I will offer the sources for my arguments in the final round. Thank you for your attention.

  • PRO

    But we now live in a time where society"s views of women...

    Feminism Does Not Equate to Equality

    Feminism was created at a time where women were indisputably discriminated. In the 1800s, women did not have equal rights as compared to men. During youth, they were denied proper education. When they grew up, they could not vote because they were seen as too dense and simple to know the complicated manners of politics. I do not agree with men"s past discriminations towards women. But we now live in a time where society"s views of women have tremendously changed. Women, particularly feminists, do not fight for equal rights (which we already have) but rather for equal treatment and for society to totally change the way they are viewed. Feminists always blabber about equality and how they fight for it, but isn"t equality for everyone? http://thoughtcatalog.com... Feminists always stick to the excuse that when women are raped and abused by men, it"s inequality. Many argue that simple catcalling of a woman is inequality. It is not. It"s injustice. (I"m not saying that I agree with the rapists" immoral actions, I am simply stating that feminists do not strive for equality at all, which is what they say they do.) If women really do want to address these problems, turning towards feminism is their biggest mistake. The abuse of women do not lie in gender discrimination but rather in social hierarchy. It"s the same case as a boy with glasses being bullied by a, say, rich kid (in this case, let"s make her a girl). Both genders are discriminated, not just women. The denotative definition of "feminism" is the "advocacy of women's rights on the grounds of political, social, and economic equality to men." I reiterate that women"s rights are already equal with those of men. I argue that feminism is irrelevant in today"s world in the sense that if women already have equal rights with men, then what is the point of still pursuing feminism? I believe that equality is not exclusive only to women, but to all humans. My rebuttal will be longer than the argument, depending on how well my opponent argues his/her points. Good luck to the future opponent.

  • PRO

    Many don't care about actual cases of misogyny in places...

    Western feminism has failed

    Modern-day first-world feminism is no longer about gender equality. Many don't care about actual cases of misogyny in places such as Saudi Arabia. They are instead interested in convincing others of a "patriarchy" and a "rape culture" in countries such as the United States. Some have resorted to attacking gamers (GamerGate) and a scientist who wore a shirt they didn't like (ShirtStorm). Feminists seem to have become disliked, and why would feminism be disliked if it truly was a momevent for equality?

CON

  • CON

    Basic Definitions: Feminism is a collection of movements...

    F*CK feminism!

    Basic Definitions: Feminism is a collection of movements and ideologies aimed at defining, establishing, and defending equal political, economic, and social rights for women.[1][2] This includes seeking to establish equal opportunities for women in education and employment.(1) feminism: noun 1. the doctrine advocating social, political, and all other rights of women equal to those of men. 2. an organized movement for the attainment of such rights for women(2). Organized activity on behalf of women's rights and interests.(3) More detailed description & variety: Feminist activists campaign for women's rights – such as in contract law, property, and voting – while also promoting bodily integrity, autonomy, and reproductive rights for women. Feminist campaigns have changed societies, particularly in the West, by achieving women's suffrage, gender neutrality in English, equal pay for women, reproductive rights for women (including access to contraceptives and abortion), and the right to enter into contracts and own property.[7][8] Feminists have worked to protect women and girls from domestic violence, sexual harassment, and sexual assault.[9][10][11] They have also advocated for workplace rights, including maternity leave, and against forms of discrimination against women.[7][8][12]Feminism is mainly focused on women's issues, but because feminism seeks gender equality,bell hooks, among other feminists, has argued that men's liberation is a necessary part of feminism, and that men are also harmed by sexism and gender roles.[13] (1) Feminism is both an intellectual commitment and a political movement that seeks justice for women and the end of sexism in all forms. However, there are many different kinds of feminism. Feminists disagree about what sexism consists in, and what exactly ought to be done about it; they disagree about what it means to be a woman or a man and what social and political implications gender has or should have. Nonetheless, motivated by the quest for social justice, feminist inquiry provides a wide range of perspectives on social, cultural, economic, and political phenomena. Important topics for feminist theory and politics include: the body, class and work, disability, the family, globalization, human rights, popular culture, race and racism, reproduction, science, the self, sex work, human trafficking, and sexuality. (4) I await my opponents arguments. (1) http://en.wikipedia.org... (2) http://dictionary.reference.com...; (3) http://www.merriam-webster.com... (4) http://plato.stanford.edu...

    • https://www.debate.org/debates/F-CK-feminism/1/
  • CON

    I was beaten to the "Accept argument" button and I will...

    Feminism Should not be Encouraged

    I was beaten to the "Accept argument" button and I will like to debate this also. If you want to accept this challenge, I will make case in round two. I will copy your "Round 1", and paste it here: "I will be arguing against Feminism. I believe that it is a negative movement because feminism does not accept that sexism goes both ways and effects men as much as it does women. This is not the only point I will be making on the subject however it will be one of my primary arguments. My adversary will be arguing that Feminism is positive, and will give their reasoning for this view." - Mr0strich8020. Round 1 - acceptance. I accept. If you do not want to accept this, message me and I will cancel the debate. Good luck. I also ask for my opponent not to post a case in round one.

  • CON

    In the future I would like to have children, and I would...

    feminism is meaningless

    Hi, white Swedish feminist male here and I believe you've misunderstood a couple of things. First of, feminism isn't the belief that women should be equal to men, it is the belief that both genders are equal. I agree with you wholeheartedly that the name "feminism" is very misleading but if it helps you can use "gender equality" instead. It is completely synonymous and it describes the movement much better. Now, I am a Swede, so I will use statistics and facts that are true for Sweden since they are the ones I am the most comfortable with. But since Sweden is amongst the more gender equal countries I think they will suffice. Ok, here we go. I am very well aware of the "myth" of the wage gap. I've heard a thousand variations of it. That the average wages of women is lower because more women decide to stay at home, or that they usually go for lower paying jobs, or that they don't get a higher education. All of these statements are sadly correct and are exactly why feminism is needed. Women shouldn't be stay at home wives or office secretaries. There should be more female doctors and lawyers and engineers and scientist. Otherwise half the population is going to waste. Furthermore, even if you account for the above mentioned reasons women's wages are still lower then men's. A female cashier (or any other job for that matter) gets less paid than a male one, there is no question about it. Here's a link to some statistics about gender inequality in Sweden by the "Central Statistical Bureau of Sweden" (a very crude translation, apologies). It's in English so you should be able to read it. http://www.scb.se... The first graph shows the how much lower the state pension of women is compared to men. Since the pension is based on all the wages you have had throughout your life it is quite self explanatory why this is relevant. If you scroll down a bit more you'll find something that might interest you a bit. It is a graph over paid maternal vs paternal leave. This is one of those cases in which men also need feminism. In the future I would like to have children, and I would honestly not mind being a stay at home dad for the first couple of years of their life. But as the graphs shows, men get a fraction of the paid parental leave women get. Children should not be raised solely by women, having a child is a shared responsibility and privilege, therefore the rearing of the child should be shared equally as well. Sadly you give me too little to work with when you speak of the rape culture, I am not entirely sure what you are talking about. If you could elaborate on it a bit I might give you a satisfactory answer in my next argument. Lastly, your point about beauty. This is another thing you've got mixed up. Women have throughout history been a bit of a male accessory, which has led to women sort of being forced to look pretty to be accepted in society. Obviously it has gotten a A LOT better now, but there are still some remnants from the past. For example, the male makeup industry is basically nonexistent because it is much more accepted for a man to not have his "brow game on fleek". When you say "Feminists also create this kind of culture that no matter how you look you're beautiful, yet if a male is short they make fun of them, call them ugly, etc." it shows that you've misunderstood the point. Feminism says women should be able to choose to look pretty or not without being treated differently, just like men are. It does not say that you are forced to think all women are pretty. Beauty is subjective and what you find attractive depends on your own sexual preference. Personally I don't find fat women attractive. Does not mean I have to force myself to go out on a date with one so that I can be a good feminist. As long as I treat a fat woman equally to a skinnier one I'm fine. Just like I'd treat a fat guy equally to a Chris Hemsworth kind of guy. That's my take on feminism, hope you like it. My impression is that you seem to confuse feminism with militant feminazis who want to overthrow the world order and enslave all men. It is a common mistake and nothing to be ashamed of, just don't propagate the misconception. It hurts everyone in the end.

  • CON

    I would like to thank my opponent for this debate. ... I...

    Feminism is anti-religious

    I would like to thank my opponent for this debate. To begin, I would like to point out just how absurd the motion put forward is. "Feminism is anti-religious". Currently there are 21 religions classified as "major" world religions, with hundreds upon hundreds more denominations and indegenous religions. To state that feminism is against "religion" boradly is simply absurd. This notion is so absurd in fact, that I only need one example to disprove it. In Sikhism scriptures, it is very clearly state that women are equal to men[1]. I would like to put forward that Sikhism is a religion, and that because it regards women as equal to men, it is not against feminism. Thus, we have clear grounds to reject this motion. http://www.realsikhism.com...

  • CON

    Two options exist: Either A) support compulsory public...

    Feminism is not sexist.

    I would like to thank my opponent for accepting. Good luck to you PRO. Here is a revised version of my syllogism, with the word "this" removed and replaced with the phrase to which it refers: ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ 1. Any movement which actively supports bias towards, or against, a single group within the Legal, Social, and Political arenas. is discriminatory. 2. Any movement that [actively supports bias towards, or against, a single group within the Legal, Social, and Political arenas] on the basis of gender is sexist. 3. Feminism does [actively supports bias towards, or against, a single group within the Legal, Social, and Political arenas on the basis of gender.] C. Therefore, Feminism is sexist. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- When I say "actively supports bias...", I am explicitly referring to the support of laws and treatments that place on group at a disadvantage when compared to another. In this debate, men are my primary reference group. In the definitions provided in Round 1, a very critical word is "grounds", which can be considered the justification for belief in something. In this instance, that would be the belief in the advocacy of women's rights. The goal in mind is the equality of the sexes, and Feminists (those who agree with and support the tenants of Feminism) see advocacy of women's rights as the means to the ends. For this debate, I shall be looking at such things as Selective service, and those things that come with it, Domestic Violence, and the way feminist theory views it, and Sexual Violence. I understand that this is Feminist Theory, and may not be characteristic of the beliefs of all feminists, but these are the tenants used to justify Feminist Advocacy. Selective Service and the Draft While we cannot blame Feminists for the existence of the Draft and Selective Service, in any of its worldly interations, we can argue that feminism has allowed the Draft and Selective Service to specifically effect men. At least in the United States, men are, by law, required to sign up for Selective Service in order to gain access to voting and federal aid [1]. Not signing up for Selective Service is a felony, and can actually result in a male losing his right to vote. This seems to me to be an issue that Feminism should address, on grounds of the equality of the sexes, however, feminists at large choose not to protest male-only Selctive Service and Conscription. Two options exist: Either A) support compulsory public service for women, or B) Support the abolishment of Selective Service. Since it's inception in the late 19th century, Feminsm as a social movement has chosen to do neither. This is to choose to support an inequity between the sexes, and given that this is support of a law that affects men only, this is to also choose to support a bias against men. Why do I bring up the Draft and Selective Service? I bring it up because Feminism is supposedly a movement to support gender equality, but it chooses to only support those things that benefit women (voting), over those things that would harm them (compulsory public service). While i would not suggest women should be conscripted when the need arises, I am arguing that there should be a similar system by which women must buy their right to vote. Domestic Violence, Rape Law and the Duluth Model The Violence Against Women Act (VAWA) is based upon the Duluth Model, which suggests that domestic violence (DV) is a tool used by men to exert control over their spouse. This act changed intimate partner violence into a sexually directional offense, making it more likely that a man will be arrested for retaliating to his spouse’s abuse than his spouse being arrested for abusing him. While the VAWA does ensure that female victims of DV are protected, it has the negative consequence of preventing the protection of male victims. In this instance, a women’s right to equal and fair treatment under the law is not being applied. In keeping with the above definition of Feminism, and what “equality” would entail in this instance, a male abuser and female abuser would be held to the same standard. This would be a major piece of what feminism should take into account. While this may advocate for women’s interests, avoiding domestic violence, it does not provide equality for the sexes. Rather, in this instance, it shifts the balance of power in such a way that, even if he retaliates, a man is more likely to be arrested that a woman, in keeping with the Duluth Model. Ideally, advocating for women’s rights and interests would entail pushing for recognition under the law as a fully capable citizen, meaning a female abuser is recognized as an abuser, as much as a male victim is recognized as a victim. A program that holds women in “victim” status dehumanizes them because it makes the assumption that not only is abuse sexually direction, but also that women are wholly incapable of abuse, and solely capable of self-defense. As it stands, women are recognized as capable of the “positive” human characteristics (leadership, strength, intellect, compassion, etc.) but not recognized as capable of the “negative” human characteristics (aggression, ferocity, etc.) under the law. Whereas a man can be charged with sexual harassment for speaking inappropriately, a woman cannot be charged with rape, even after drugging and forcing a man to engage in sexual intercourse with her. While the dictionary definition of rape entails non-consensual intercourse, the legal definition entails penetration, making it impossible for a woman to rape a man through vaginal intercourse, regardless of his ability to consent to intercourse. Bringing alcohol, or other mind altering substances, adjusts the ability of an individual to consent. However, it is current law that if a drunk man has sex with a drunk woman, he can be charged with rape, regardless of the circumstances surrounding the encounter. If she initiates intercourse with him, it can be considered rape. Both individuals are drunk, both incapable of consent, and yet he can be charged with rape. There have been no pushes to change this. In fact, VAWA is the main reason the current situation exists. VAWA is the epitome of feminist legislation. “Women” is part of the title, so that suggest that these things are Women’s issues. Once again, there is the issue of equal recognition under law, the “equality of the sexes” is being adjusted by “organized activity on behalf of women’s rights and interests”. Even beyond this, it would be an intelligent inference to believe that being recognized as a full human, capable of good AND evil, is a part of feminism. Such things should be recognized as sexist. In each of these examples, women are being granted rights and protections that are not afforded to men, and sometimes even taking away rights and protections that should be afforded them. This creates bias against men, and for women, based solely upon thier gender, which leads me to believe that, per the definitions provided, Feminism is sexist. I look forward to PRO's responses. [1] https://www.sss.gov... [2]nhttp://www.theduluthmodel.org...... [3] ttp://www.whitehouse.gov...... [4] http://www.merriam-webster.com...... [5] http://www.justice.gov...... [6] http://online.wsj.com...... [7] http://www.debate.org...

  • CON

    are the women that want EQUAL treatment, rights,...

    Modern Feminism

    I am a man who is all for feminism. But only the correct feminism. There is a LARGE difference between MODERN and REAL feminism. Real feminists are pro-equality. Modern feminists are pro-women. That is the true essence of why they are not the same. The real feminists (Sarah Palin, Michele Bachmann, etc.) are the women that want EQUAL treatment, rights, abilities, and opportunities. They want to be defended equally in law and seen as EQUALS in the eyes of everyone. Modern feminists (Hillary Clinton, Michelle Obama, etc.) support pushing for women to not only be equal but actually have MORE rights and privileges than men. THAT IS NOT OKAY! I fully support equality for men and women both but I do not support one side having more power or rights or abilities or opportunities than the other. Ever. TRUE feminists believe that women must make success happen for themselves (just like men have to do). But modern feminists believe men should be forced to hand them opportunities or else it is a "misogyny." I just live by the simple ideal that EVERYONE (male or female) should HAVE to EARN ANYTHING THEY WANT! I will never support handing ANYONE anything! I've never been handed anything and I don't believe handing people anything, especially based off sex, is not okay. We need to raise an America with strong, independent people that can fend for themselves. Thank you.

    • https://www.debate.org/debates/Modern-Feminism/2/
  • CON

    Is feminism needed to tell women to stop getting...

    Feminism! Hooray!

    So this probably isn't going to be the most put-together argument as I'm at work and all of a sudden some irrelevant company has decided to ask for our help, so bear with me. But thanks for the positive feedback, same goes to you - I'm enjoying this debate with you, as you're one of the very few people I've been able to discuss feminism with who hasn't resorted to ad hominems or just given up right out of the gate. So thanks for that! Rape Culture This is the problem feminists produce. Instead of ensuring the safety of civilians in general, they focus on women. Men are killed more than women almost worldwide [1], but specifically in North America. In my opinion, death is more serious than rape. If you take a gander at random web pages of murder statistics, it's not that great either. Here [2] is an example of an article that jokes about murder, yet you don't see feminists upset - it explains about half of all murderers won't see the jail time, yet feminists don't notice that - and that if you're a man, you're almost 75% more likely to be killed than a woman, something feminists don't seem to care about. Rape culture is a non-issue. Nobody is advocating rape, and by giving tips as to how to avoid dangerous situations (like all other forms of crime) is nothing but beneficial. Regarding slut-shaming, women do just as much as men [3], as I'm sure this falls into the same ballpark as black people calling each other "n*gga," so whites think it's okay too. This is not a "misogynistic patriarchy" issue, this is a "some people are mean/insecure" issue. And feminists are victimizing women and demonizing men through something that affects both genders [4], and, funny story, people held a double standard in favour of the girls 1% more than the boys. So there is equality written all over that, yet feminists decide to turn it into a "poor women, big bad man" issue - detrimental to society, as it takes away from the male victims and makes women look inferior, as they need a group of people to stand up for only them in an issue that equally affects both genders. So I'm going to assume women choosing dressing sexy, looking good and flirting with men has nothing to do with their own personal choice to do so - but the patriarchy and society objectifying women. I still can't understand how considering a woman (or anyone for that matter) good looking is considering them an object. Look at Kim Kardashian, she basically shows everyone her huge butt in order to get attention. Are you going to tell her to stop objectifying herself? Is feminism needed to tell women to stop getting attention in a way they want? Once again, another reason feminism is detrimental to the whole of society - it's setting unrealistic expectations and standards and basically telling women how to dress - something I thought feminism was against - and men (instead of people in general) not to be mean to women (instead of people in general). I fail to see how my example is any different. I was robbed (something that happens to men more than women) and I was told what to do to avoid it. A woman is raped (something that happens to women more than men) and she is told what to do to avoid it. All of a sudden nobody can treat women like anyone else, and have to take everything they say at face value [5], because apparently not believing a woman 100% without any questions "signals that that women don’t matter and that they are disposable" - an absolutely ridiculous claim which implies men can be disposable at the same time... so once again, detrimental to the whole of society, as it really is asking for special privileges - 100% trust at face value - and the non-necessity of men's well-being. Affirmative Action I'm happy we agree! However, ignoring or not including the feminists that are for affirmative action as a part of feminism is wrong. And having feminists fight with each other isn't really the greatest for feminism anyway. Peer Pressure I completely agree that it's incredibly easy to deconstruct basically all of Anita's arguments. However - Anita's YouTube channel has over 187,000 subscribers and her videos are nearing a total of 18,000,000 views [6]. And judging by the amount of thumbs up, that's a pretty good chunk of people that agree with her and believe in the same type of feminism as her. And considering you believe her views to be flawed and easily deconstructed, this is not a positive thing. The only issue I would say needs addressing would be the hostility toward female gamers, however right off the bat I can tell you there's only a select few guys that are irrationally hostile toward women like that online. Way too often guys "white knight" their way to the girls' hearts and try to befriend them simply because they're girls. Girls also tend to use their sex to get attention, and more often than not I've seen girls join lobbies and openly start harassing other players. If we take into account the amount of girl gamers with headsets (not a lot) to disrespectful girl games, from my experiences anyway, it's pretty high. It's low for guys considering there's so many male gamers with headsets. This is all from personal experience, so if you choose not to believe me, I guess I can't do anything about that. Objectification & Female Nudes Although I agree that bad people should not be invading anyone's privacy (especially to this degree), this is not a feminism issue. The invasion of privacy in general (because this happens to men quite a lot, too) is not the patriarchy and is not part of rape culture and does not facilitate rape. If you wish to make claims like this, you should be able to say the leakage of male nudes also facilitates male rape. And guess what, feminists don't even mention the invasion of men's privacy, or really anything negative against men in general. You say over and over "...women..." "...."women..." "...women..." ...which is just why feminism is detrimental. Victimizing half the population and demonizing the other half is not beneficial to society. Steubenville I would completely disagree that this one instance is "reflective of wider social norms," considering this is the only news station out of the dozens that covered this story to address it in this way. If the media does in fact reflect society's social norms, then you should see that due to the fact that almost every single media source demonized the men, that society does not like rapists or anything of the sort. Just like me bringing up the amount of followers Anita Sarkeesian has to represent that she actually does represent a large portion of the feminist community, you would have to show that this news source has a strong following to show that it actually does represent a large amount of people who "support rape" or are victim-blaming or whatever else. Pay Gap Considering you are unable to provide a source showing that women actually get paid less than men, instead of earning less than men in general, I can still safely say the pay gap is due to the choices that women make, the hours they work, maternity leave, job performance, and much more. There really is absolutely no data supporting the idea that women are paid less than men for performing the exact same job at the same level as those men. The only thing that hints at an actual "pay gap" is the data showing that women earn less in some areas (which can easily be attributed to hours worked, job performance, and much more - it would be up to you to prove it's due strictly to discrimination) and men earning less in some areas, as well. This can all be attributed to personal choice [7], and if you want us to think otherwise, well, you'll need some solid evidence. Conclusion So far I haven't seen a single thing that says feminism is needed and/or would be beneficial to society. And just for some fun, here's a bunch of female privileges that feminists seem to miraculously forget about when discussing privilege in general [8] - I'd appreciate it if you took a look at that, I learned a few things and I hope you would too! Also, notice "in general" being kind of a key term around here. [1] http://www.unodc.org... [2] http://www.economist.com... [3] http://www.wired.co.uk... [4] http://jezebel.com... [5] http://www.washingtonpost.com... [6] https://www.youtube.com... [7] http://www.topmanagementdegrees.com... [8] https://mensresistance.wordpress.com...

    • https://www.debate.org/debates/Feminism-Hooray/1/
  • CON

    They started burning down churches, chaining themselves...

    THBT feminism has failed

    Feminism - "The advocacy of women"s rights on the ground of the equality of the equality of the sexes." - Oxford Dictionary Seeing as you did not define what you meant by failure, I can only presume you mean that feminists did not achieve their goals in building equal rights. You stated 'feminism has failed', so I can only assume you mean ALL feminism, so if I find one major example against your point, then your argument is invalid...So let us take this back to 20th century with the Suffragettes. Suffragettes were female supporters of equal rights, particularly in the right to vote. In 1832, in Britain, the Great Reform act was passed and gave people the right to vote, but this left out women. In 1867, the National Union of Women's Suffrage was born, and in 1903 the Women's Social and Political Union had also arrived. At first, aiming for equal rights, they started of peacefully, protests were common, meeting, and the usual, but two years later, their radical movements started. They started burning down churches, chaining themselves to railings, five years later they were smashing windows and causing a stir in the lives of the public. They were sent to prison, continued hunger strikes and the famous Cat and Mouse Acts were passed against then. However come WW1 in 1914, suffragettes and women volunteered happily and women formed 1,600,000 of the force behind factories, healthcare and communications, and all this time the suffragettes were using this to help their campaign. In 1918, women over thirty gained the vote. 1928, all women gained the vote on the same terms as men. You stated: 'Feminism failed because it only helped leading women who were at the top of the society, but did not help middle-class women. Also, women's rights advocates did not help the root of the problem which is the problem stated above. they campaigned on mag covers, song lyrics and many more, but they still did not solve the root of the problem. Thus, feminism is a failure.' So feminism has not only helped the top of society, as everyone on the same terms as men received the vote, they had solved the exact root of the problem they were facing, and because of the lack of detail, you implied that there were no anomalies and this was true for all cases. Well not here, thus I have won this round. Still skeptic and need any more examples? Check out the Convention on the Elimination of All Forms of Discrimination Against Women, which has shaped many middle eastern countries, anything to do with second wave feminism, especially during the 1960's, and feminists today have shaped the equality you see today, which is very evident in the war on the objectification of women, which counts as a goal. They haven't completely won the whole war on everything, but the point of feminism is about forming equal rights, so every step towards it takes and succeeds is a victory. I am not a feminist, but don't turn a blind eye to what they've done. http://www.historylearningsite.co.uk... http://news.bbc.co.uk... http://www.firstworldwar.com... http://www.oxforddictionaries.com...

  • CON

    I propose that Third Wave Feminism is a load of sexist...

    "Third Wave" Feminism

    I propose that Third Wave Feminism is a load of sexist misandry. Many, if not all, modern feminist are only focused of women's issues and laugh at the idea that men have issues as well. I have personally witnessed to modern feminist laugh at a men who have been abused and raped just because they believe men cannot be abuse and/or raped. Also, modern feminism has placed women as the "more important and dominant" sex; however, this in itself is sexist. With this note, I end my proposal.

  • CON

    Is feminist ideas a good thing for society. ... so you...

    Feminism is good for society as a whole.

    I accept as i believed feminism is the bane of society. It is one of the modern evils guys see in a world. Is feminist ideas a good thing for society. I believe that it is false that feminist are not good. i got to know what you believe first Daniel. so you are a guy so why do you support feminism. That makes no sense.