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Feminism! Hooray!

Thanks for accepting Cartidge, and welcome to the site! I'm glad we can come to a consensus that we both support equality, in regards to opportunity and treatment. ~ I guess I might as well quickly explain why I believe feminism is outdated and unnecessary before jumping into refuting your arguments. Now don't get me wrong, at a time feminism (or some type of equality movement geared toward granting women and men equal rights in the workforce, government, education, etc.) was necessary, much like most equality movements. At a time, the only people able to vote were white, male, property owners [1]. Different equality movements and groups formed over the centuries which in turn granted equal rights to everybody. Now this in itself is great, I don't have anything wrong with that. However look at North America now. Anyone (men and women) over 18 (or 21) can vote. Anyone (men and women) can apply for any job. Anyone (men and women) can attend any schooling. Anyone (men and women) can expect equal pay, with laws prohibiting lesser than equal pay if sexism or any type of discrimination is present. Anyone (men and women) can achieve anything they want if they earn it and fight for it. So why do feminists feel the need to ask for more "rights?" ...Well, I don't know. And to be honest I don't think a whole lot really know they're trying to gain superiority over men. However looking at the statistics, women and men have equal opportunities in practically everything. Both sexes excel in their own fields, and both have their pros and cons, leading to some college/university courses consisting of mainly one sex over the other, or some jobs/careers consisting of mainly one sex over the other. I see you brought up the infamous $.77 figure, so I'm excited to jump into that when the time comes. But for now, what do I think feminism is? It's nothing more than an outdated, unnecessary movement which has now "unknowingly" morphed into a female superiority regime. And that's what I'm against, not equal treatment of the sexes. Now let's see what you've brought up. 1. Gains have been made. Plenty. Enough where I can say we're treated equally. Some people (people) are biased, sexist, bigoted, disrespectful, etc. But that does not mean society as a whole is against women (considering there are plenty of sexist feminists), and it does not mean we need a group of social justice warriors fighting for peace, as that's utterly unrealistic. 2. For a claim like this to be made, we would need evidence of a backward-moving social justice system. I only see us moving forward or standing still, I haven't seen any sort of recession in the two decades I've been alive, and from research I've done, I haven't seen any since some time before that. And considering the vast amount of people completely against the feminist movement, don't you think it would be rather easy to just ignore feminism and move backward to a society where women aren't treated as equal to men if we really wanted to? The fact of the matter is we don't want that - because there is no patriarchy, there is no huge group of men wanting to push our society back to the 19th century - women are treated as equal to men and are given equal opportunity, and that won't change any time soon. So we don't need a feminist movement to ensure it doesn't. ----- Now in my first round I did mention modern feminism, so I do agree with you that feminism/equality movements have done lots of good in the past, so we can agree to agree on that. However I will address the infamous pay gap and gendered hierarchy in the workforce. "Pay Gap" So I'll just flat out say the 77% figure is... well, not worded correctly. Although it is true that women (as a whole) earn 77% as much as men, this is not due to workplace discrimination/sexism, and the 77% figure is nothing more than an incorrect assumption [2] [3] [4]. My fourth link, as you can see, gives some really good reasoning as to why men make more than women in general (notice I didn't say per specific job title, as that isn't the case.) Personal choice, anyone? It always makes me laugh when a feminist claims women don't make as much as men and women don't have jobs in high paying professions as much as men, like Law or Medicine, and when I ask why she doesn't want to she says she isn't interested in a position like that. ...Soooooooo you can have a preference as to what job you want, but other women can't? I would consider that quite... well I don't even know the right word. Hypocritical, maybe? Either way, it's detrimental to women, yes, feminism is detrimental to women as well as men. It sets unrealistic expectations and feminists claiming women aren't doing as well, or can't do as well,as men (when they really are, or can be, yet just chose to do well in other areas) is more than detrimental to society as a whole. Women and feminists are focusing on something that they misinterpreted. There is "equal pay day" [5], other government-approved organizations as well as non-profit and profitable groups that advocate and spend time organizing events for "equal pay," something we already have. Laws have been passed that make it illegal to pay someone less than another for discriminatory reasons, which I'm all for, but right off the bat we see that it's illegal to pay women less than men for the same work. And if employers actually paid women 77 cents to the dollar, wouldn't it be smart to hire a whole bunch of women? They'd save so much money having a mostly female staff. But the fact of the matter is they wouldn't, as the pay gap doesn't exist in the way feminists want it to. Considering I've used up 60% of my characters and I haven't addressed more than one point... I'd say it's safe to pass off the fact that more men make up academic medical positions much more than women because women tend to enter different career paths with an education such as this. We also have to take into account that employers don't only look at education when hiring someone for a position. Well Dave went to school and graduated with the same GPA as Sarah, but Dave volunteered elsewhere and dedicated more of his time to extracurricular activities that follow a medical path, such as taking night courses or having jobs at universities or even hospitals. The thing about statistics like this is that it only addresses one aspect, and ignores every other factor. Bad human behavior Domestic violence is a serious issue, but I don't feel a feminist movement is what's needed. Considering three million men are victims of domestic violence a year and four million women are, the margin is not a very big one, and a movement dedicated to helping women is selfish and (shall I say) sexist. Women being victims of one type of violence more than men does not require a movement helping women, it requires a movement helping victims in general of domestic violence. And this is another reason feminism is detrimental to society - it is mainly geared toward women for issues that affect both men and women. As beneficial as it once was, creating countless women's shelters with next to zero men's shelters, as well as funding for breast cancer and other women-related-hardships, while men are affected with their own hardships almost just as much is ridiculous and does exactly what the movement is fighting against - separation and segregation of the sexes. Gender Roles So back in the day... men hunted (or worked) as women were physically unfit to hunt animals, so the women stayed at home and took care of the children. Obviously we've abolished this mindset for the most part, however some men and women still sort of live by it. But I have one question - what's wrong with it? If a woman wishes to stay at home and take care of the kid and make food and clean and do what you consider "falling into a gender stereotype," then... why don't you let her? One more reason feminism is detrimental, it pushes women (and sometimes men) to do things they don't want. My Dad was able to take eight years off work to raise me while my Mom worked, and nobody cared at all. Nobody is forcing women to stay at home. Nobody is forcing men to be the "primary breadwinners." Nobody is forcing anything. Stereotypes exist for everyone. Feminism addressing ONE stereotype and trying to "fix" it (while it isn't broken, once again it's the woman and man's choice as to who works and stays at home) is not the right approach and is doing more harm than good. I've witnessed women complain that people are telling them they should get back to work after birthing a child and raising it somewhat, and allowing the man to take care of the kid, because of these "counter-stereotype" missions feminists are going on. Feminism is imposing itself on so many people's lives simply because the feminists don't agree with their choices. And yeah, emphasis on choices. Nobody is forcing women to do anything. I agree with abortion and I believe abortion should be legal no matter what the case. However this isn't a feminist issue, as the cause behind banning abortion is usually a religious one, or an actual logical one, ie. nothing to do with blatantly denying the mother the rights to her own body. Conclusion Feminism has made some strong steps forward, enough to say men and women are treated as equal. If a group of people excel in an area over another group, this is not sexism or patriarchy, it is simple choice or just coincidence, with biological factors backing it up. "Problems" feminists think require a feminist approach are not feminist problems, they are societal problems if anything, or are simply choices made by women that feminists don't like. [1] http://www.history.org... [2] http://www.wsj.com...; [3] http://www.huffingtonpost.com...; [4] http://www.cbsnews.com...; [5] http://www.equalpaycoalition.org...