PRO

  • PRO

    I would first recommend reading [The Green New...

    CMV: The Green New Deal distracts from climate change, by tying climate change to left-leaning policy/rhetoric. The bill seems designed to raise republican opposition, and is a disappointment/insulting for people who believe that climate change is the #1 issue of our lifetime.

    I would first recommend reading [The Green New Deal](https://www.congress.gov/116/bills/hres109/BILLS-116hres109ih.pdf) if you haven't already, its about 14 pages, with huge spacing (about 3-4 real pages). But to summarize the bill in my own words, the Green New Deal calls for essentially every democratic agenda to be passed into law(to include climate change). As a democrat, I agree with most of the agenda items(it's literally the democratic agenda), but there is something wrong with creating a bill like this. By tying together climate change, and a plethora of other issues, like equal protection and rights for illegal immigrants, government-run(?) healthcare for all, etc, it is ensuring intense opposition by non democrats. Since I do not believe any rational human being could read the bill, and think it would get bi partisan support, my view is that there was no real intention of ever getting the bill passed into law/policy. (Sure, the gender wage gap is important, so are Native American rights... But there's no need to make that stand on a climate change bill, and doing so is insulting to the Americans who want to see huge climate change initiatives as our national policy) **The abridged, loose, logical argument:** Premise 1) If you want a bill to get passed into law, when possible, you will write it in a bi partisan way. Premise 2) Climate change can be written in a Bi-Partisan way Premise 3) The Green New Deal was not written in a bi partisan way(or was written in a partisan way). Conclusion) The Green New Deal was not written to be passed into law. (And this disappoints me, because in my opinion, climate change is the #1 issue of my lifetime.) \_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_ Edit 1: I learned that the intent of the bill wasn't necessarily to pass something into law, but more of a political statement or some sort of rally cry. Not sure how I feel about that one or what changes, but its worth noting. (its a function of a specific type of house resolution) Edit 2: After reading some of these posts, I now realize that the Green New Deal is actually divisive within the democratic party, and received a (soft) "bipartisan" rejection in the senate. This seems to indicate the increased importance of having a specific targeted bill, as it seemed some senators did not want to go on record supporting it, because of what it said.

    • https://www.reddit.com/r/changemyview/comments/l9ssyl/cmv_the_green_new_deal_distracts_from_climate/
  • PRO

    Both parties are (for international standards) right wing...

    CMV: There is no legal way to bring real change in the USA.

    I try not to have the "No true Scotsman" fallacy. The American government is full of *corruption-* sorry- **lobbyism** so votes don't change anything really. A good example is Obama-care which was the idea of free healthcare for everyone, but now isn't free, isn't universal and is tried to be abolished. Both parties are (for international standards) right wing and in their own information bubble, so that there isn't a discussion about things like minimum wage, healthcare, prisons, police etc. because everyone just starts yelling at ones and thinks they're right. The only option for a small group would be effective terrorism (We blow up 1 school every week, until *this* has changed or similar) and for a societal class to become aware of its power and destroy the government until there is not a fingernail of establishment left. ​ But that probably doesn't happen. Not because my conclusion is wrong, but because the establishment pushes nationalism to an unhealthy amount in the heads of every American.

    • https://www.reddit.com/r/changemyview/comments/l77o8v/cmv_there_is_no_legal_way_to_bring_real_change_in/
  • PRO

    Speculation with BTC (asides from puts) thus is directly...

    CMV: All those climate-saving billionaires are huge hypocrites now investing in bitcoin!

    Bitcoin uses as much power as Norway mainly produced from dirty coal plants in third world countries. https://www.bbc.com/news/technology-56012952 (Edit:the article says it increased already to Argentinian size) Elon spending $100 mio price for carbon capturing while investing $1,5B in bitcoin at the same time without any real need. World climate is going down and we waste ton of energy just for speculation? This is soo hypocrite. Why aren't the billionaires not criticized more? Why isn't there a co2 tax on bitcoin? Why are those billionaires being hailed in Reddit while ruining all our futures? I don't get it, how can one produce electric cars, solar roofs, traffic reduction technologies, grant prices for climate technology and at the same time invest a multiply into the most stupid waste of energy one could possibly imagine? The only reason TSLA is doing this is for speculation purposes... One bitcoin transaction generates as much CO2 as a Tesla driving 5000 miles. Let alone an increased BTC price propelles mining activity. Speculation with BTC (asides from puts) thus is directly harming the climate as it expects rising courses and this drives mining.Tesla should sell their co2 certificates to themselves to cover for the bitcoin emissions? Are those billionaires not being honest to us and all they care is becoming richer ( well who doesn't) by polluting the ?. This invest in bitcoin will jeopardize all C02 emissions savings Tesla has made during it's entire existence in no time ( didn't do the math). One could wonder why this is even allowed, earning money from C02 emissions certificates while investing the same money into a C02 emissions network with no other real usage aside from wasting energy and becoming richer. Can anybody explain why Elon is still everybody's hero while being climate Sauron? I don't get it, we should tell him that this is wrong and he needs to stop. Elon, please be again the self made billionaire by making the world a better place! You are ruining all your reputation and the world needs green role models so badly!

  • PRO

    Failure to reach global accord

    we're too late on global climate change

    Failure to reach global accord

  • PRO

    Consequences of increased GHGs

    we're too late on global climate change

    Consequences of increased GHGs

  • PRO

    The shifts required will take decades to plan and...

    Resolved: Adaptation should be the most urgent response to Climate Change.

    The shifts required will take decades to plan and implement, they are already urgent

  • PRO

    The necessary research alone will take time and should be...

    Resolved: Adaptation should be the most urgent response to Climate Change.

    The necessary research alone will take time and should be a priority

  • PRO

    Prioritising prevention hasn’t worked

    Resolved: Adaptation should be the most urgent response to Climate Change.

    Prioritising prevention hasn’t worked

CON

  • CON

    I know this sounds like a semantic distinction but it's...

    CMV: There is no legal way to bring real change in the USA.

    Legal for who? Because there are absolutely legal ways for people in government to bring real change in the USA. Just because they don't make certain needed changes doesn't mean they aren't possible. I know this sounds like a semantic distinction but it's not. You have to keep in mind that there is no universal law saying, for instance, that politicians have to listen to lobbyists. They choose to do so, and they can choose not to. Just because it isn't simple, because it might harm their future prospects, because in reality it would take a while to untangle the repercussions, doesn't mean they can't choose not to. Saying otherwise is defeatism and downplays their responsibility. Following from that, one legal way to bring real change in the USA for someone currently not in government is to run for office. Which by no means is easy or guaranteed or something everyone wants, and when they're in office they can always, again, just not make the change, but it's been very effective for the Tea Partiers/Trump supporters and the changes they wanted.

    • https://www.reddit.com/r/changemyview/comments/l77o8v/cmv_there_is_no_legal_way_to_bring_real_change_in/
  • CON

    You can debate whether that's actually a good idea, just...

    CMV: The Green New Deal distracts from climate change, by tying climate change to left-leaning policy/rhetoric. The bill seems designed to raise republican opposition, and is a disappointment/insulting for people who believe that climate change is the #1 issue of our lifetime.

    First off, I sort of reject a lot of your premises involving bipartisanship. I don't think there are enough republicans serious about trying to be bipartisan to actually pass any meaningful climate change bills with 60+ votes. If dems try to be bipartisan, it's primarily a stalling tactic by the GOP to ensure that nothing gets done for long enough that they can run on the "look how ineffective the democrats are". Related to this, bipartisanship is *not* the only way to get things done. They can also try to get rid of the filibuster. You can debate whether that's actually a good idea, just like we can debate whether bipartisanship is actually a good idea, but it is a path forward. That said, even to get 50 votes, you still need moderate Democrats like Manchin who are almost certainly unlikely to be interested in the green new deal. So in a sort of roundabout way, I agree with you that it's not realistic right now, although I disagree with your exact reasoning. But I do disagree that that necessarily makes it a "distraction". On this point, I think you have to disentangle two things. There's the green new deal itself, which So in a sort of roundabout way, I agree with you that it's not realistic right now, although I disagree with your exact reasoning. But I do disagree that that necessarily makes it a "distraction". On this point, I think you have to disentangle two things. There's the green new deal itself, which is notably not an actual bill that's currently under consideration to become law, and is more a set of goals. What can actually pass should be a practical consideration when actually legislating, but it's silly to try and argue that people shouldn't even clearly state *what they actually want*. Anything that actually passes will surely be a compromise, bit you don't help your cause in a negotiation by dumbing down your opening offer to try and avoid having to negotiate entirely. You start with what you want and work from there. Now, you could make a strong case that there are democratic figures that treat the green new deal as an all-or-nothing no compromise purity test and use it to attack other Democrats in ways that are pretty unproductive. But that's a critique of those Democrats, not the green new deal itself, which is a pretty accurate platform of what a lot of people on the left genuinely want.

  • CON

    gt;so that there isn't a discussion about things like...

    CMV: There is no legal way to bring real change in the USA.

    >c*orruption-* sorry- **lobbyism** People really overestimate how much lobbying is done and also assume that all lobbying is even bad. Would you say people that lobby for BLM are also perpetuate corruption in the system? >A good example is Obama-care which was the idea of free healthcare for everyone, but now isn't free That wasn't the general idea behind obama care.The idea was to cover some people not to be a univeral free healthcare. The only reason people are even currently talking about a universal health care is because of Obama care, it showed people that it's possible to make it a reality in the US. >so that there isn't a discussion about things like minimum wage, healthcare, prisons, police etc. I mean those discussions are literally happening and we have recordings of them, and policies are made from those discussion that are a compromise between what both parties want. People are just to lazy to follow those discussions and rather read twitter headlines / reddit headlines for their news. This remindes me of the [scroll of truth](https://www.google.com/search?q=scroll+of+truth&client=firefox-b-d&sxsrf=ALeKk00nlH7UFp1E8RiOQ-GZ0VMtoREZCg:1611867686919&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjxhZ2Hw7_uAhWTPewKHQpjBf0Q_AUoAXoECBAQAw&biw=1680&bih=936#imgrc=wPc1v4HYmJ_tDM) meme where people just throws away the truth for their own believe because the truth does not fit with their narrative. ​ Politics especially on federal level is all about incremental changes that have a end goal which will be achieved in decades, not about changes that will happen tomorrow.

    • https://www.reddit.com/r/changemyview/comments/l77o8v/cmv_there_is_no_legal_way_to_bring_real_change_in/
  • CON

    Adaptation is likely to hurt poorer nations

    Resolved: Adaptation should be the most urgent response to Climate Change.

    Adaptation is likely to hurt poorer nations

  • CON

    The focus on prevention should not be diluted

    Resolved: Adaptation should be the most urgent response to Climate Change.

    The focus on prevention should not be diluted

  • CON

    Increasing oil costs make this the best time to be...

    Resolved: Adaptation should be the most urgent response to Climate Change.

    Increasing oil costs make this the best time to be focussing on alternative energies

  • CON

    Some of the required adaptations are impossible

    Resolved: Adaptation should be the most urgent response to Climate Change.

    Some of the required adaptations are impossible